[09:01] <steveronuken> Random thought: Scriptable cynos, which determine the jump in radius. (to people that don't know me, I do this. It can be best to ignore me at times :wink: )
[09:07] <darren_fox> That would be cool
[09:11] <darren_fox> I assume the random bumping on cynos is an _unintended_ side-effect of collision detection & hitboxes. Since it has significant implications, and possibly more so after cap-changes due to increased vulnerability, it would be an improvement
[09:13] <5pitf1re> @steveronuken: Do you mean jump range or the "spawn radius” on the cyno beacon?
[09:14] <5pitf1re> Never mind actually ...
[09:14] <5pitf1re> I just woke up.
[09:14] <5pitf1re> Words don’t make much sense currently.
[09:34] <max_kolonko> I see you talked about dd yesterday? I agree with the conclusion about triage surviving if buffer fit.
[09:34] <max_kolonko> But since you dont see much dd in wh these days thats the absolute end if my input on the subject :D
[09:35] <steveronuken> The spawn radius. Rather than always coming in on a 5km sphere, being able to have a cyno which could drop everyone on a 10km sphere. (I have _no_ idea how much work that'd be to change. probably a chunk)
[09:36] <max_kolonko> Steve, since you raised a subject, why not also add script that would go even further? A 50-100km from cyno? 1000?(with new grids)
[09:37] <steveronuken> I'd prefer to leave people in targeting range?
[09:54] <rocket_x> @max_kolonko: that breaks a lot of things
[09:54] <rocket_x> also
[09:54] <rocket_x> regarding spawn distance on cynos
[09:55] <rocket_x> look at wormholes
[09:55] <rocket_x> base it on mass
[09:55] <rocket_x> just a suggestion :3
[09:55] <rocket_x> also
[09:55] <noobman> i wouldn't wish that evil mechanic on anyone
[09:56] <rocket_x> neither would i, but the fact you have to deal with bumping as a serious issue in capital warfare is pretty dumb
[09:56] <rocket_x> btw
[09:56] <rocket_x> the shitposting on reddit is amazing
[09:56] <rocket_x> the number of people whining about 'omg nerfs' is no less than incredible
[09:56] <rocket_x> especially as all they've seen is the EHP balancing stuff
[09:56] <rocket_x> and we're not even done with that yet
[10:02] <sebastien_st.frusquin> reddit complaining ? I'll take it as a sign these changes are on the right track
[10:04] <rocket_x> haha :3
[10:26] <max_kolonko> Indeed
[10:27] <max_kolonko> As for skill balanci.g for fauxes, i dont see one si
[10:27] <max_kolonko> Simest while inelegant solution listed in the documents
[10:27] <max_kolonko> Simplest*
[10:28] <max_kolonko> Leave it as it is. Scale both ships from carier skill period.
[10:28] <max_kolonko> No sp inflation
[10:28] <rocket_x> the problem is with that is CCP wants a new 'ship class'
[10:28] <rocket_x> force auxiliaries will not be carriers
[10:28] <max_kolonko> I get that 100%
[10:28] <jezza_mcwaffle> I haven't looked on reddit for a while, there's drama? Oh dear :smile:
[10:29] <max_kolonko> And i dont agree that it should stay that way. Hivewer all problens with current proposal is skill inflation, this is a counter to it. Now its ccp job to figure out how much they are ok with skill inflation
[10:30] <rocket_x> i agree it would've been simpler to keep them as carriers
[10:31] <max_kolonko> Right now supers require which level if carrier? 1?
[10:31] <rocket_x> carrier 3 iirc
[10:32] <max_kolonko> I would arguebthey should be treated as t2 carrier/dread(for titan)
[10:32] <max_kolonko> But thats me :)
[10:32] <max_kolonko> And equire lvl 5 that id
[10:32] <max_kolonko> Is+
[10:33] <max_kolonko> Damn, i really need to re read sentence before sending with my shitty phone
[10:33] <rocket_x> hmmm
[10:33] <rocket_x> they share very similar roles though in fairness
[10:33] <rocket_x> ewar etc, fighter squadrons
[10:33] <rocket_x> utility (neuts)
[10:34] <rocket_x> they also lack the traits of t2 ships
[10:34] <rocket_x> they have a completely different hull, they have a normal resist profile
[10:34] <rocket_x> they don't require invention
[10:34] <rocket_x> their build cost is drastically different
[10:34] <rocket_x> etc
[10:35] <max_kolonko> In that case they should not share carrier skill at all
[10:35] <rocket_x> when supers were introduced, they were called motherships
[10:36] <rocket_x> and they literally were just big carriers
[10:36] <max_kolonko> They should have super skill like titans does
[10:36] <max_kolonko> I remeber that :)
[10:36] <rocket_x> i can see that argument :simple_smile:
[10:37] <max_kolonko> And gies bs3 -> carrier3 -> super1
[10:37] <max_kolonko> As progressipn
[10:37] <rocket_x> so
[10:38] <max_kolonko> And titan could require dread3
[10:38] <rocket_x> you proposed a fix for skill bloating with fax
[10:38] <rocket_x> and you just broke the entire capital skill tree and made more skill bloating :smile:
[10:38] <max_kolonko> With nore skill inflation \i/
[10:38] <rocket_x> yeah hahahaa :?)
[10:38] <max_kolonko> Fight fire with fire
[10:38] <rocket_x> :simple_smile:
[10:38] <max_kolonko> Thats separate topic actually
[10:39] <max_kolonko> I just never liked how supers and titabs are placed in training progressipn
[12:29] <ccp_larrikin> and I have to read @jezza_mcwaffle stuff
[12:29] <rocket_x> i want to get @phantomite to do some lowsec stuff for it to if he's cool with it
[12:29] <rocket_x> and lex
[12:30] <rocket_x> if he stops trolling for long enough :smile:
[12:30] <darren_fox> please do read it. I think it is the issue many people have a problem with. I know it's mine at least
[12:30] <ccp_larrikin> @darren_fox: I will, just been busy this morning :simple_smile:
[12:32] <jezza_mcwaffle> As long as what I've written is useful somewhere :simple_smile:
[12:33] <5pitf1re> Have we thought about the recalibration rig's effect on the refit recalibration?
[12:34] <rocket_x> i commented btw :3
[12:34] <rocket_x> That to me is an issue of proposed changes scaling poorly at the lower end, and something that needs to be addressed whatever is eventually decided on.
[12:34] <rocket_x> I agree with this 100%
[12:34] <rocket_x> In lowsec or nullsec, you can literally go 'okay Triage #2 go green' and you're sorted. You don't have that extra triage floating around in a wormhole, and small groups won't have it either.
[12:34] <5pitf1re> Do we want to include it and provide an option for pilots to go with less tank but shorter recalibration times?
[12:35] <rocket_x> @jezza_mcwaffle: ^
[12:35] <jezza_mcwaffle> Yep I saw it
[12:35] <rocket_x> hmmmm the problem is with that @5pitf1re , you'd just die faster lol
[12:35] <jezza_mcwaffle> So does everyone on reddit have access to view that sub?
[12:35] <rocket_x> good post btw, really helps clarify the issue
[12:35] <rocket_x> and yep, its viewable to the public
[12:36] <rocket_x> i made a crosspost on r/eve for feedback on refitting
[12:36] <rocket_x> and linked your post in it too :simple_smile:
[12:36] <jezza_mcwaffle> Thanks :simple_smile:
[12:47] <5pitf1re> yea, I guess you're right @rocket_x, people would probably never go for that option
[12:47] <rocket_x> ^_^
[13:02] <rocket_x> @here thoughts on giving FAX a fatigue reduction similar to BLOPS? [cc: focusgrouplogbot]
[13:02] <rocket_x> would allow backup to be brought in easier, without making it TOO easy
[13:03] <5pitf1re> same range but reduced fatigue?
[13:03] <steveronuken> Sounds reasonable to me. As long as the capital reps are only really viable with Triage.
[13:04] <ccp_larrikin> eeeeeeeeeeeh.............
[13:04] <darren_fox> It would enable reinforcements/backup, potentially salvaging a losing fight
[13:04] <xttz> I think fatigue needs to be looked at in general for all caps if we want them to actually be used
[13:04] <5pitf1re> @ccp_larrikin: I think you did it wrong, I saw people do it like this. reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
[13:05] <xttz> I agree with this reddit post "like stabbing the same problem twice for good measure. In the same way that Jump Range nerfs AND fatigue was overkill as a power projection solution."
[13:05] <steveronuken> ...............\o\
[13:05] <5pitf1re> Making them more vulnerable but reducing the time commitment is something I'd really push for.
[13:07] <xttz> fatigue reductions on so many ships seem like a hack to work around a formula that's fundamentally not really working as intended
[13:08] <5pitf1re> In the end it is still a game and should also feel like it. It should be fun to drop a capital and shouldn't feel like a job.
[13:08] <xttz> yeah
[13:09] <5pitf1re> If I jump somewhere with my cap I know that for the next ~50ish minutes there is absolutely no way for me to actually leave the computer if something really comes up IRL.
[13:09] <5pitf1re> We had people practically self-destruct their capitals because of stuff like that.
[13:09] <xttz> I'm sure there's a middle ground where capitals can be used to their full potential without being able to dominate the whole map in a matter of minutes/hours
[13:11] <5pitf1re> Of course that entire problem gets worse as your ship class goes up. It was one of the reasons I sold my super.
[13:11] <5pitf1re> I just did not want to commit to the field and game for such a prolonged time.
[13:12] <5pitf1re> I just did not want to commit to the field and game for such a prolonged time. It felt more like a burden than fun.
[13:13] <5pitf1re> And I'm aware this is a bit complicated to solve.
[13:14] <rocket_x> ccp_larrikin [1:04 PM]
[13:14] <rocket_x> eeeeeeeeeeeh.............
[13:14] <rocket_x> rofl :smile:
[13:15] <5pitf1re> @rocket_x: he actually liked it and meant to write "reeeeeeeeeee"
[13:16] <5pitf1re> At least that's what I like to believe.
[13:18] <5pitf1re> This goes into the right direction.
[13:18] <5pitf1re> wait @rocket_x is this from your capital write up?
[13:18] <5pitf1re> How did I miss this part!?
[13:18] <rocket_x> yes it is
[13:18] <rocket_x> :simple_smile:
[13:19] <rocket_x> I really wanted to wait to discuss it with everyone here in more detail
[13:19] <5pitf1re> brb going to reread it
[13:19] <rocket_x> but it was relevant to @xttz 's comment :simple_smile:
[13:19] <rocket_x> @5pitf1re: see you in an hour lol
[13:19] <xttz> A good start. I'd like to see jump ranges bumped slightly too, the current mechanics (combined with watchlists) make it harder to do 'sneak attacks' as 5 LY pretty much guarantees you get spotted in hostile space
[13:20] <rocket_x> the way i see it atm
[13:20] <rocket_x> jump range literally draws a circle around your staging system
[13:20] <rocket_x> 'i have superiority within this radius'
[13:20] <rocket_x> the bigger we make the circle, there will be FEWER pockets that aren't controlled by capital super-powers
[13:20] <rocket_x> BUT
[13:20] <rocket_x> those pockets will be larger
[13:20] <xttz> it encourages everyone to keep their caps at home, never interacting with anyone else's caps
[13:21] <xttz> if you want to go mess with someone else you better deploy your entire capital fleet because that's where theirs is
[13:21] <rocket_x> Yep, and there's no overlap
[13:21] <rocket_x> overlap is what causes continuous content over time
[13:22] <rocket_x> the problem is the difference in power between larger and smaller groups means overlap will never truly be possible again
[13:22] <rocket_x> simply because if they increase jump range, your enemy will move a bit further away from you
[13:23] <rocket_x> I would say keep jump range the same, but make the idea of jumping a couple of mids much more viable, without screwing everyone over for a week
[13:24] <xttz> Watchlists are a huge factor in overlap imo, everyone knows if anyone else moves a substantial number of caps without any real work. There's no room for an element of surprise
[13:25] <rocket_x> Plus, jump range being where its at currently causes bottlenecks, which make the map's topography matter - which i think is pretty cool (though in fairness i'm likely biased)
[13:25] <5pitf1re> Well, it's a bit of work, initially (which can be a bit automated) but afterwards you're right, watchlists are really low effort.
[13:26] <rocket_x> but from a nullsec defensive POV, you could effectively use region gates to create a 'stronghold', offensively using them as a way of jumping through and extending your power beyond your 'jump range'
[13:26] <rocket_x> Watchlists is also a double edged sword
[13:26] <rocket_x> 'i'm not going to bash this POS because there's 50 CFC supers on'
[13:26] <rocket_x> 'I'm not going to bash this POS because i can't tell if there are CFC supers on or not'
[13:27] <rocket_x> for the majority of players, capital combat exists on the side of caution
[13:27] <rocket_x> not knowing if you're safe = as good as knowing you're not safe
[13:27] <rocket_x> HOWEVER
[13:27] <rocket_x> i do agree that at some level, the way people like myself use the watchlist could be considered broken
[13:28] <5pitf1re> You're rely on actual scouting a lot more, which granted, if you know the capital stating is not that big of a deal either once setup.
[13:28] <rocket_x> conversely - the guy i'm hunting could use the same watchlist to keep an eye on me
[13:28] <rocket_x> where its truly broken, is that i can add someone to watchlist and they'll never know
[13:28] <rocket_x> If the watchlist wasn't mutual
[13:28] <rocket_x> but notifications were compulsary
[13:28] <rocket_x> that's a step in the right direction
[13:29] <rocket_x> because then you KNOW someone is watching you, and your cyno alt
[13:29] <rocket_x> and there's counterplay there
[13:29] <rocket_x> you could use a different alt, jump to an unexpected midpoint, or even use yourself as bait
[13:29] <nyrocron> i think watchlists should be changed so it only works if the other person agrees to be watchlisted
[13:29] <xttz> yeah making them mutual is the best approach
[13:29] <nyrocron> so you can watchlist your friends but not get free intel
[13:30] <rocket_x> alright, let me put this to you
[13:30] <rocket_x> if you watchlist my main
[13:30] <rocket_x> i'll be like 'alright, why not'
[13:30] <rocket_x> (i probs won't be, but just say i would be)
[13:30] <rocket_x> now
[13:30] <rocket_x> someone in my alliance watchlists my titan pilot
[13:30] <rocket_x> why would anyone EVER need my titan pilot on their watchlist?
[13:31] <5pitf1re> Keep in mind though, with dockable titans your titan pilot won't be _just_ a titan pilot anymore.
[13:31] <5pitf1re> It would very well be your main too.
[13:32] <rocket_x> Another argument is also, that when you log out, you remove yourself from someone else's game, is it really unfair to notify them that you 'are no longer in play'
[13:32] <nyrocron> yeah that is a good point
[13:32] <rocket_x> i'm cool with removing watchlists, if your ship stays in space when you log off
[13:32] <rocket_x> :smile:
[13:32] <nyrocron> and something we use watchlists a lot for
[13:32] <rocket_x> free supah kills erryday
[13:32] <nyrocron> to see if someone in wspace just logged or is still cloaked
[13:33] <rocket_x> Alright, another point
[13:33] <rocket_x> when hunting people, despite the arguments i've but forward
[13:33] <rocket_x> the watchlist can be overpowered
[13:33] <rocket_x> so
[13:33] <rocket_x> 1) compulsory notifications when you add someone
[13:34] <rocket_x> 2) 0-60 seconds random delay on log-in
[13:34] <rocket_x> 3) 0-5minute delay on log-out
[13:34] <ccp_larrikin> Or move the whole system of non-mutual watchlists to an ingame mechanic, something like location agents, or perhaps combined with the intel structures?
[13:35] <nyrocron> ideal in my opinion: you can allow instant notifications for friends and all others are delayed by ~5min
[13:35] <5pitf1re> I like the intel structure idea.
[13:35] <nyrocron> but this would be harder to implement
[13:35] <rocket_x> locator agent immediately sends you a notification when someone logs out?
[13:35] <rocket_x> :smile:
[13:35] <nyrocron> in w-space a deployable to see how many people are in system would be interesting
[13:35] <rocket_x> well, the observatory array points in that direction from what we've been told alrady
[13:36] <ccp_larrikin> @rocket_x: v0v maybe, I don't have any specifics. But maybe depending on the range, a locator agent sends you a notification 'x char is active again in y system', or you pay a daily fee for the agent to watch that character v0v
[13:36] <jezza_mcwaffle> In W-space we use watchlist to work out if people log off because you cant tell if they simply cloak or log off outside of a POS
[13:36] <rocket_x> which i'm assuming is why CCP hasn't dealt with the watchlists issue at present
[13:36] <ccp_larrikin> That and we're focused on other things at the moment :simple_smile:
[13:36] <rocket_x> @ccp_larrikin: or do is constallation wide
[13:36] <rocket_x> you find the guy via locator agent
[13:36] <rocket_x> go drop an observation array
[13:36] <ccp_larrikin> maybe, like I said, its not a design just an interesting idea
[13:36] <rocket_x> and it tells you if the guy logs in/out or leaves the constallation
[13:37] <5pitf1re> You could have an observatory array network though.
[13:37] <nyrocron> at my deployable idea: make it single-use, cost a few mil isk and you have to sit on it decloaked for 2min or so
[13:37] <nyrocron> so it's not trivial to just drop everywhere
[13:37] <5pitf1re> The better the coverage the better and more accurate the intel.
[13:37] <rocket_x> its kinda funny though
[13:37] <rocket_x> 'i wonder if i'm being scouted'
[13:37] <rocket_x> *wonders around the constallation*
[13:37] <rocket_x> *presses scan*
[13:37] <rocket_x> 'Observation Array - TOTES NOT HUNTIN' YO M8'
[13:38] <rocket_x> :smile:
[13:38] <ccp_larrikin> Hah
[13:38] <5pitf1re> The thing with observatory arrays is that they provide a means to counter them.
[13:38] <rocket_x> yeah there is
[13:38] <rocket_x> go kill the damn thing
[13:38] <rocket_x> lol
[13:38] <5pitf1re> Which is good.
[13:38] <xttz> It would be pretty amusing if a locator agent on someone caused an NPC covops to show in scan range of them
[13:38] <5pitf1re> I like counter play options.
[13:38] <rocket_x> same
[13:39] <rocket_x> see i think we've made more progress spitballing about something that has nothing to do with capitals in the last 5 minutes than reddit has made in months
[13:39] <5pitf1re> Of course you would notify the owner that you just attacked/destroyed his structure in that part of space.
[13:39] <5pitf1re> Which is also intel
[13:39] <rocket_x> if there's killmails for the structures too
[13:40] <rocket_x> people will be able to see 'oh this guy lost a structure over here, looks like he's a cyno alt for X alliance'
[13:40] <rocket_x> good talk guys btw :3
[13:40] <5pitf1re> however this would also open up a game play for mercenaries me thinks
[13:40] <5pitf1re> like, you pay a merc group to go sweep an area of those observatories
[13:41] <5pitf1re> now, all you as an owner know is that a merc group killed your structures
[13:41] <5pitf1re> and if you are not fast enough to react to this, you might not know why they did it
[13:42] <5pitf1re> this would reward organized groups on both ends
[13:42] <5pitf1re> @ccp_larrikin: can we have this please?
[13:42] <5pitf1re> make it happen :simple_smile:
[13:43] <ccp_larrikin> @5pitf1re: you don't want me programing....
[13:43] <5pitf1re> :smile:
[13:43] <ccp_larrikin> rolls face across keyboard
[13:43] <ccp_larrikin> does it work yet?
[13:43] <5pitf1re> hehe
[13:43] <rocket_x> lol
[13:43] <5pitf1re> I thought that's how Perl programmers do business.
[13:44] <5pitf1re> I should stop before this becomes a holy programming language war.
[13:45] <gorski_car> I was taught lisp in school it was cancer
[13:47] <gorski_car> paranthesis and polish notation gg
[13:47] <nyrocron> lisp is great
[13:48] <ccp_larrikin> I built a LUA bot in minecraft once...
[13:48] <rocket_x> i thought lisp was a form of speech impediment o_O
[13:49] <gorski_car> (+ 5 5)
[13:49] <5pitf1re> hey now, reverse polish notation is p dank
[13:50] <5pitf1re> I liked it, used to have a calculator which supported it in school
[13:50] <5pitf1re> my colleagues hated me because they weren't able to use it when they forgot theirs :smile:
[13:51] <gorski_car> I found it pretty confusing especially when doing multiple calculations
[13:51] <5pitf1re> it is really weird in the beginning
[13:51] <gorski_car> especailly when your brain doesnt want to
[13:52] <5pitf1re> but I also found out that I do maths a bit different than a lot of other people so it wasn't a big issue for me
[13:52] <5pitf1re> I kinda like visualize stuff
[13:52] <5pitf1re> it's complicated to explain
[13:52] <5pitf1re> I'd describe it like seeing objects move around until it makes sense :smile:
[13:53] <5pitf1re> so it wasn't such a big deal for me to change the order of those objects
[14:01] <titus.tallang> ccp_larrikin: keep in mind you can damp them now
[14:01] <titus.tallang> and just make it "refitting drops all target locks" rather than requiring manual unlocking
[14:02] <5pitf1re> this would be really helpful for disabled people as well by the way
[14:02] <5pitf1re> I know a player that uses his face to control EVE, really impressive stuff and I can only try to imagine how difficult most interaction is.
[14:03] <5pitf1re> Just saying.
[14:04] <darren_fox> ccp_larrikin: Typically if you are solo or dual triage you refit to tank if you are primaried, possibly batteries if you are neuted, and otherwise max cap recharge to keep the reps up
[14:04] <ccp_larrikin> @titus.tallang: its still not a real penalty, how long does it take to lock a T3 in a triage? 3-4 seconds?
[14:04] <titus.tallang> more with damps
[14:05] <jezza_mcwaffle> But in essence when your refitting atm especially as a Triage you'll always going to have a weakness, for example if you refit for full tank because of hostile DPS you leave yourself open to being vulnerable to neuts and if the hostiles can shoot your fleet forcing you to expend more cap on your remote reps
[14:05] <jezza_mcwaffle> I'll do a full reply when Im not being tackled :stuck_out_tongue:
[14:05] <ccp_larrikin> No problems, no rush on th ereply :simple_smile:
[14:05] <nyrocron> yeah i already replied
[14:05] <nyrocron> basically that
[14:05] <ccp_larrikin> Sure, and I get that, but thats kinda th epoint, you can always just refit to cover whatever the enemy brings. They have lots of neuts? Batteries ftw, they primary? moar tank, not primaried? max reps
[14:06] <nyrocron> why is this a problem?
[14:06] <ccp_larrikin> There is no counterplay.
[14:06] <nyrocron> i'd say: refitting is the counterplay to them bringing excessive amounts of one thing
[14:06] <jezza_mcwaffle> A carrier requires something to refit from, which can be bumped away or killed seperatley
[14:06] <titus.tallang> i would agree with nyrocron
[14:07] <titus.tallang> refitting ensures that you cannot just stack one thing, but require a balanced fleet comp
[14:07] <titus.tallang> well, unless you stack _enough_ of one thing
[14:07] <titus.tallang> but it makes it harder
[14:07] <darren_fox> There is counterplay. You switch neut pressure if someone goes full cap, or switch dps pressure as well. You also work hard to limit their options for refitting. Typically bumping, killing nesotr, killing depot
[14:08] <nyrocron> it's not like refitting just makes the ship stronger, there is a limit to its total power
[14:08] <ccp_larrikin> Is that really counterplay? they DPS you and you refit to tank, they put you under neut pressure and you refit to counter. you can always just counter what they bring
[14:08] <nyrocron> it's much like t3 destroyers, you just shift your power
[14:08] <ccp_larrikin> or what they use
[14:08] <titus.tallang> ccp_larrikin: if they bring _only_ dps, yes
[14:08] <titus.tallang> or if they bring _only_ neuts
[14:08] <ccp_larrikin> Bumping is...some counter, yes, kinda...sort of
[14:08] <jezza_mcwaffle> Its a good counter in itself to a poorly formed hostile fleet
[14:09] <jezza_mcwaffle> If you take a look at wormhole based fleets as example we bring a mixture of DPS, Ewar and Neuts to counter what we face.
[14:09] <darren_fox> If someone only brings dps (and not enough ewar), refitting is a counter
[14:09] <ccp_larrikin> Put it in the thread, go though some examples :simple_smile:
[14:09] <nyrocron> let's imagine a world without refitting, i just jumped my whole fleet into a hostile wormhole, my connection home collses
[14:09] <nyrocron> collapses *
[14:10] <nyrocron> the hostile fleet had a large number of dps boats on field so i brought a resist fitted triage
[14:10] <ccp_larrikin> @nyrocron: we're not stoping you from refitting, we're putting a price on it.
[14:10] <nyrocron> they notice and just reship to all neuts, i am neuted within seconds
[14:10] <xttz> refitting ~is not~ going away though. you can still refit you just need to stop fighting for 60secs
[14:10] <nyrocron> there already is a sufficient price to it
[14:10] <ccp_larrikin> they reship within 60 seocnds?
[14:10] <ccp_larrikin> what price?
[14:10] <ccp_larrikin> whats the current price?
[14:11] <nyrocron> it takes full attention for a while and nerfs you in other areas. and you might get stuck in that specialized fit if the nestor/... gets killed or bumped
[14:11] <nyrocron> and this is not something i'm just making up
[14:11] <nyrocron> it happens regularly
[14:11] <titus.tallang> do you have a magical oracle that tells you they will have neuts on grid in 60 seconds?
[14:11] <xttz> Here's a better question: why should capitals be the special snowflake ships that can adapt to counter any force they face?
[14:11] <ccp_larrikin> @nyrocron: ...I think thats a pretty weak argument for a 'cost' to refitting.
[14:12] <titus.tallang> because the way i see it you have 60 seconds after you realize they are bringing neuts
[14:12] <titus.tallang> 60 seconds _during which your fleet will get terribly murderzoned_ because their logi is ineffective
[14:12] <nyrocron> so it has to be a hard, defined game mechanic, nothing to do with how existing mechanics are utilized creatively
[14:13] <sebastien_st.frusquin> also people act like refitting is instant, it is not, it already takes some time
[14:13] <sebastien_st.frusquin> it's not a magic button you press and bam, you are countering the enemy
[14:13] <5pitf1re> especially with lag
[14:13] <titus.tallang> i still maintain my opinion that refitting has limits, and is fine, on triage
[14:13] <titus.tallang> make sure you can't excessively refit the new cap modules (volume) and see what happens
[14:13] <sebastien_st.frusquin> I have never seen refitting for a triage as overpowered
[14:13] <titus.tallang> then if you feel refitting is too strong you simply iterate in a subsequence release
[14:14] <nyrocron> i absolutely agree that it is problematic in other situation and non-sieged ships
[14:14] <sebastien_st.frusquin> on the contrary, that's about the only thing making it somewhat viable
[14:14] <titus.tallang> you are correcting an issue that nobody feels is an issue
[14:14] <nyrocron> but in triage it is working absolutely fine at the moment and there is no need to fix it
[14:14] <5pitf1re> refitting on slowcats, sure that was an issue
[14:14] <ccp_larrikin> @titus.tallang: ok, lets for a second leave that argument, lets say at a WH level its fine. What about when you scale the fight? now we're talking about 100 triage, and only the one being primaried refits, the rest are sitting in max rep?
[14:14] <titus.tallang> then you primary the one in max rep fit and it melts in 2 seconds
[14:14] <sebastien_st.frusquin> ccp_larrikin: in a fleet fight
[14:14] <sebastien_st.frusquin> the triages WILL die
[14:14] <titus.tallang> because i assume you have equivalent number of dudes to their 100 triage
[14:14] <nyrocron> what titus said
[14:14] <sebastien_st.frusquin> no question
[14:14] <max_kolonko> @xttz: this exactly. For me, especially in small gang environment of eh refitting means that unless you are lucky only rarge group capable of reshiping to any situation can kill caps. This limits small group capability to fight them, neaning fight ends when one side drops a triage
[14:15] <nyrocron> it can't refit in time to die, especially with new EHP numbers
[14:15] <sebastien_st.frusquin> refitting only will buy you seconds, maybe
[14:15] <titus.tallang> no triage can refit in time to not get completely murderzoned if you're talking a fight where 100 triage is a thing
[14:15] <ccp_larrikin> 'oh, you brought in all erebus, great, refit max therm resists and lol at their DDs'
[14:15] <nyrocron> i think that is great
[14:15] <titus.tallang> ^
[14:15] <nyrocron> they brought only a single damage type, punish them for it
[14:15] <sebastien_st.frusquin> and die to the erebus guns
[14:15] <sebastien_st.frusquin> that do half kinetic
[14:15] <titus.tallang> allows you to make DDs strong while giving a well-defined counter to prevent it from being overpowering against siege/triage
[14:16] <nyrocron> then they bring in a different type and suddenly you die before you can even refit
[14:16] <max_kolonko> Yoi brought a ships tanked for a damage type, panish you @nyrocron:
[14:16] <ccp_larrikin> Ok, that has some validity. Put it down in the thread, I'm not the only one reading it :simple_smile:
[14:16] <titus.tallang> because otherwise you end up with a situation where either the DD is useless, or the DD is so oppressive and the triage can't do anything about it
[14:16] <sebastien_st.frusquin> if someone brings all erebus
[14:16] <sebastien_st.frusquin> I suspect there will be other ships on grid
[14:16] <titus.tallang> he can just see "oh, titan on grid, i might as well go afk, i'm dead"
[14:16] <titus.tallang> _that_ is frustrating as heck
[14:16] <sebastien_st.frusquin> like maybe, I don't know
[14:16] <sebastien_st.frusquin> subcaps ?
[14:16] <sebastien_st.frusquin> supers ?
[14:16] <sebastien_st.frusquin> plenty of non-Th damage ?
[14:16] <ccp_larrikin> I don't agree with everything your saying, but write it in the thread
[14:18] <xttz> While I don't really have an investment in any particular implementation of refitting, I do think that it should behave consistently across all ship-types without any special snowflake rules (like siege/triage acting differently)
[14:18] <sebastien_st.frusquin> triage right now are basically a way to tell the hostile fleet that, okay, you are not killing my DPS ships unless you bring enough to alpha them OR bring something to deal with the triage, now let's fight
[14:18] <titus.tallang> which one
[14:18] <titus.tallang> we have two
[14:18] <titus.tallang> xttz: why do you feel this?
[14:18] <titus.tallang> make it a bonus on the triage module
[14:18] <titus.tallang> allows refitting while affected by a weapons timer
[14:19] <titus.tallang> it's not a special snowflake rule if it's part of the module
[14:23] <xttz> because where do you draw the line? If unrestricted refitting isn't overpowered on triage then surely the same is true in bastion mode or a rorqual industrial mode
[14:23] <xttz> or ships with cynos active
[14:23] <titus.tallang> the line is simple
[14:23] <titus.tallang> "is this ship capable of being remote repaired"
[14:24] <titus.tallang> not being able to receive remote repairs puts a hard cap on the ship's tanking capability, refitting or not
[14:24] <titus.tallang> in any situation where remote repairs are possible, refitting serves as a further multiplier on the already linearly scaling incoming repair amount
[14:24] <titus.tallang> which is what makes it too powerful
[14:26] <xttz> Every other ship has to make compromises when it comes to primary function versus local defense. You're asking for triage ships to be able to offer perfect assistance then switch to optimal defense rather than make an initial compromise like everything else
[14:26] <nyrocron> if there are more points to be addressed, let me know
[14:28] <titus.tallang> xttz: otherwise known as "having a unique role"
[14:28] <sebastien_st.frusquin> @xttz: wrong, the triage itself is already a compromise
[14:28] <titus.tallang> if triage is balanced around refitting capabilities, then this is not an issue, but a good thing
[14:28] <sebastien_st.frusquin> you enter triage, you are already in the compromise, having abandonned all hopes of remote assistance of any kind
[14:28] <nyrocron> triage already means you are on your own and has a clear role of only providing reps/et to the fleet
[14:28] <nyrocron> it can't suddenly switch to dps or ewar
[14:29] <xttz> what you've done is committed to a fight, which is the intention of the triage and siege restrictions
[14:29] <sebastien_st.frusquin> the other compromise lying in the rigs, you want to be a triage, you have already paid heavily in buffer due to rigs (way more, in proportion, than a subcap logi incidentally)
[14:29] <nyrocron> to make it interesting to play, refitting is a great mechanic
[14:29] <nyrocron> good point about rigs
[14:30] <nyrocron> you have to decide if you want your ship to be cap recharge, cap buffer, repair or hp buffer
[14:30] <sebastien_st.frusquin> indeed
[14:31] <sebastien_st.frusquin> in a philosophical sense, refitting in triage is like this: "nobody can help me, but I can still help myself"
[14:31] <nyrocron> in the feedback thread on /r/eve there also seems to be an agreement that nobody thinks refitting in triage is op or needs to be changed
[14:31] <titus.tallang> eh
[14:31] <titus.tallang> "reddit agrees" is not a good argument
[14:31] <titus.tallang> like, ever
[14:31] <sebastien_st.frusquin> true
[14:31] <nyrocron> lol
[14:31] <titus.tallang> reddit is a shithive of circlejerking and echo chambers
[14:32] <titus.tallang> hi log reader, you're exempted
[14:32] <nyrocron> it's a broader group than us, including subcapital focused players
[14:32] <nyrocron> so it should be taken into account
[14:32] <sebastien_st.frusquin> it's a lobbying group
[14:33] <xttz> Do you all think siege mode should be exempted from refitting restrictions?
[14:33] <nyrocron> i think most of the people affected by changes to triage are represented on reddit
[14:33] <sebastien_st.frusquin> people that play EVE and despise reddit are not represented
[14:34] <nyrocron> ofc this is not the case for discussions pvp vs pve or hisec/nullsec, ...
[14:34] <nyrocron> sure but that is not really relevant
[14:34] <nyrocron> just need representation of the relevant playstyles not representation from everyone playing that way
[14:34] <titus.tallang> xttz: i am not sure on siege
[14:35] <titus.tallang> probably, yes
[14:35] <sebastien_st.frusquin> I will never believe that people active on public internet forum are in any way, shape, or form representative of the larger population they are drawn from
[14:35] <nyrocron> all i was saying is that the subset of people posting of reddit most likely includes people from all the subsets of players affected by triage changes
[14:35] <sebastien_st.frusquin> but that's my opinion anyway :simple_smile:
[14:36] <nyrocron> my statement does not include that being representative
[14:37] <sebastien_st.frusquin> fair enough
[14:40] <nyrocron> also, regarding refitting in general, i think it is quite telling that this is the favorite pvp video of many eve players i know and the reason many people even were interested in triage to begin with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMFahR4wXTg
[14:40] <nyrocron> something to keep in mind.
[14:48] <nync> @xttz: it should be exempted
[14:51] <rocket_x> can someone help respond to the community stuff in that thread? @here [cc: focusgrouplogbot]
[14:51] <rocket_x> i can't keep up
[14:51] <rocket_x> and i feel like i'm doing too much of the talking here
[15:31] <rocket_x> i can't tell if he's legit mad about the hurr durr slowcats meme
[15:39] <steveronuken> Doom. A touch salty right now
[15:39] <5pitf1re> I should do more Twitter
[15:39] <5pitf1re> so many of you nerds on Twitter
[15:40] <rocket_x> @steveronuken: he's fine, i grabbed him in a PM
[15:40] <5pitf1re> :smile:
[15:40] <rocket_x> he's cool with the trolling etc
[15:40] <rocket_x> doom and i are on pretty good terms,
[15:41] <rocket_x> spend a lot of time doing tourney testing etc
[15:41] <steveronuken> :smile:
[15:41] <steveronuken> I like Doom. Though this year in Vegas, he spent most of his time with PL
[15:44] <rocket_x> i wish i'd had the chance to go to vegas tbh
[15:44] <rocket_x> but yeah doom is well and truly a PLbro
[15:50] <scott_ormands> vegas was a ton of fun
[15:50] <scott_ormands> I even got a drunk picture with larrikin near the end of the night club party
[15:51] <5pitf1re> I’m contemplating going to fanfest next year.
[15:51] <5pitf1re> Not quite sure yet.
[15:51] <scott_ormands> I would like to but i dont think i can afford it this year
[15:55] <scott_ormands> I think @ccp_larrikin should convince the rest of ccp to fly out the capital focus group for fanfest as a thank you for all the hard work we're going to be doing...ehhhh ehhhhhh
[15:55] <5pitf1re> :smile:
[15:56] <5pitf1re> I endorse this service and/or product.
[15:56] <scott_ormands> do we have a third?
[15:56] <5pitf1re> don’t let us down @rocket_x!
[15:56] <5pitf1re> think about it, we could be big and little spoon then
[15:57] <rocket_x> haha
[15:57] <rocket_x> i'm going to fanfest anyway :simple_smile:
[15:57] <5pitf1re> oh
[15:57] <5pitf1re> mhmm
[15:57] <scott_ormands> (but this way you dont pay for it)
[15:58] <steveronuken> Fanfest and Eve Vegas are quite different experiences :smile:
[15:58] <5pitf1re> I’m sure.
[15:59] <5pitf1re> Vegas wouldn’t be a good idea for me.
[15:59] <5pitf1re> I’d likely end up in jail over something stupid.
[16:00] <scott_ormands> you mean like almosty happened to the goon private party?
[16:08] <steveronuken> Some people just can't handle themselves. :simple_smile: know your limits, and don't go past them
[16:08] <5pitf1re> :3
[16:09] <scott_ormands> i just got drunk, reclaimed fountain and went gambling with my alliance exec for 4 hours, I consider that a drunk night well managed
[16:10] <5pitf1re> last night I found out that I’m a lot better at CS:GO when drunk, on the other hand maybe I just think I’m good because I’m drunk
[16:10] <5pitf1re> not quite sure
[16:10] <5pitf1re> needs more testing
[16:10] <scott_ormands> I agree
[16:11] <steveronuken> As long as you actually remember the night, you're good :smile:
[16:11] <scott_ormands> i remember.... most of it?
[16:11] <steveronuken> (Admittedly, I don't remember how I got back to my hotel, after the pub crawl, at fanfest)
[16:12] <5pitf1re> heh
[16:12] <steveronuken> Hazy is fine :smile:
[16:35] <max_kolonko> back from work, gona dig into that reddit post now :simple_smile:
[20:39] <eliserandolph> Though in fairness I woudln't really rely on reddit too much for feedback
[20:41] <eliserandolph> most of the time it's just this echochamber that circle jerks whatever the most prevalent opinion is early on
[20:43] <eliserandolph> obviously it's a decent source for visibility (though I'd argue the eve-o forums are better and then linking that thread on reddit), but don't feel disparaged if something gets shit on
[20:45] <lordsservant> eh the reddit circlejerk, much like the fhc circlejerk, is easy to manipulate :stuck_out_tongue:
[20:48] <eliserandolph> I'll leave it to the professionals, though I daresay the goal isn't to manipulate people~
[21:11] <lamhoofd_hashur> we all know reddit ppl are the most balanced, well thought out people we have in eve wrt their opinions
[21:11] <lamhoofd_hashur> :simple_smile:
[21:11] <sisterbliss> @eliserandolph: thx for the response to the thread
[21:13] <sisterbliss> & @5pitf1re , @steveronuken
[21:13] <steveronuken> Absolutely nothing new in my post. :simple_smile: Just wanted it out there.
[21:14] <sisterbliss> its good to get it written down yeah
[21:55] <lamhoofd_hashur> it is funny to see comments that the nid is too weak
[21:55] <lamhoofd_hashur> and needs a buff
[21:55] <lamhoofd_hashur> while we now had 2 fights in a row where we couldn't break a single nid
[21:57] <scott_ormands> you can maker the nid really strong but only if you spenmd a lot
[21:57] <lamhoofd_hashur> is that a bad thing? :wink:
[21:58] <lamhoofd_hashur> another idea i was having is kinda have very strong reps which will cap out a FAX +-4 min in w/o neut pressure, while also having local reps with less cap usage but more sustained/cap stable
[21:58] <lamhoofd_hashur> the 1st could be used as a burst tank where greater groups are fighting, allowing to tank a significant fleet of dreads
[21:58] <lamhoofd_hashur> while the 2nd could be used for more small scale stuff
[21:59] <lamhoofd_hashur> could even be based on triage bonusses (different types of triage or something)
[22:00] <lamhoofd_hashur> i want to avoid a FAX breaking very fast due to 30 dreads shooting it, because that is what is possible in NS, but I also want to be able to kill a carrier in W-space
[22:01] <eliserandolph> npnp @sisterbliss it's hard for me to contribute to slack since I'm usually at work when all the chatting goes down, so I'll try to add feedback to the thread thingie
[22:03] <lamhoofd_hashur> being able to rep a lot at the cost of significant amounts of cap + a lot of buffer should give NS people some fun to play around with
[22:04] <lamhoofd_hashur> giving a neut resistance bonus to more sustainable FAX + lighter repping vs cap usage will allow fun in W-space
[22:32] <rocket_x> the problem with reddit, is that it takes a lot of work to sort through the crap
[22:32] <rocket_x> i spent all day doing it with one thread
[22:42] <rocket_x> at the very least the community has had a chance to vent their autism :stuck_out_tongue:
[22:44] <rocket_x> i probably replied to 90% of the 270 comments heh
[22:57] <eliserandolph> that's pretty insane
[22:59] <rocket_x> i'll be pretty insane by the end of this whole thing i reckon