[12:03] <phantomite> Shall we talk about motherships
[12:04] <phantomite> Well actually I want to talk about squadrons
[12:32] <ccp_larrikin> max_kolonko [5:03 PM]
[12:32] <ccp_larrikin> @ccp_larrikin: hopefully You dont get poisoned, but once You there think about that every 20 seconds autralian gods roll a poison ECM dice with a tiny tiny chance of success < ahahahahah
[12:32] <max_kolonko> :simple_smile:
[14:11] <5pitf1re> @phantomite: we can but it might be smarter to wait for the devblog about squadrons.
[14:11] <5pitf1re> At least that's what Larrikin pointed out.
[14:16] <phantomite> Will we be still talking about.to http://about.to balance here when we get those details too or will CCP end our discussion before going ahead with further unannounced plans
[14:17] <phantomite> Is the real question @5pitf1re
[14:52] <5pitf1re> I'm fairly sure they want our opinion on it.
[14:52] <5pitf1re> How much that will change the plans we'll see when it's done.
[19:02] <eliserandolph> hey does the ewar resistance modifier affect remote effects as well?
[19:02] <eliserandolph> remote assistance , like projected eccm and remote sebos, etc
[19:05] <capqu> i asked that and they said
[19:05] <capqu> u still cant recieve remote assistance
[19:05] <capqu> which seems stupid to me
[19:05] <capqu> if you can get 10% damped you should be able to get 10% sebo'd
[19:06] <eliserandolph> but do you get the ewar resistance working fully or is it affected by the modifier
[19:06] <capqu> no aparantly u just cant recieve any remote assistance
[19:07] <eliserandolph> oh, reading
[19:07] <eliserandolph> yea that's mega dumb then
[19:07] <eliserandolph> a fax in triage fighting 50 dudes will be jammed 30% of the time if those dudes only commit EC-300s
[19:07] <eliserandolph> actually even higher, 35% of the time
[19:08] <eliserandolph> because ewar doesn't have a stacking penalty
[19:08] <5pitf1re> Yes, ECM is still one of the big questions.
[19:09] <5pitf1re> We were thinking of splitting the ECM resist out of the overall EWAR resist and bump it up to 100%.
[19:10] <5pitf1re> Which basically means making them immune to ECM since it is just broken.
[19:14] <eliserandolph> I wonder if you could have an un-gameable way to have e-war scaling based on incoming effects
[19:16] <capqu> ecm's problem is it's lack of stacking penalties
[19:16] <capqu> all the other ewar is fine with any reasonable resistance
[19:17] <5pitf1re> It is also that randomness that makes it broken along with the devastating effect of being binary on top of it.
[19:18] <eliserandolph> I don't mind the randomness nor the binary effect, really
[19:18] <5pitf1re> We had an idea to make ECM lower your maximum locks down to an arbitrary number of locks, maybe down to 1.
[19:18] <5pitf1re> But that'd break a lot of other things.
[19:18] <eliserandolph> also seems kind of useless
[19:18] <5pitf1re> I could see it being annoying on a FAX.
[19:19] <5pitf1re> Being down to 1 and having to relock targets all the time.
[19:19] <5pitf1re> However, changing how ECM works is off the table for now anyway.
[19:19] <eliserandolph> indeed
[19:19] <capqu> with a 90% resistance
[19:20] <capqu> u wont feel it much
[19:20] <capqu> esp with the base strength caps have currently
[19:20] <eliserandolph> you'd think so
[19:20] <eliserandolph> but you'll still feel it quite a bit
[19:20] <capqu> even with eccms?
[19:20] <5pitf1re> tinkerhell had the idea to let siege/triage start with 100% resistance and have a resistance decay based on the amount of time an active e-war module is in effect.
[19:21] <capqu> i would have thought it would take hundreds of unbonused jams to have a reasonable chance at a capital with eccm
[19:21] <5pitf1re> capqu, the resistance won't change the fact that a lucky dice roll will make you lose all your locks.
[19:21] <capqu> yeah but u also have a lucky diceroll to crit them perfectly
[19:21] <capqu> so who cares about minor chances
[19:22] <5pitf1re> I also had the idea to make a subcap module and a fighter squadron ability to lower resists.
[19:22] <capqu> sounds overpowered
[19:22] <eliserandolph> 8 Kitsune's would jam a fax 50% of the time
[19:23] <capqu> 8 kitsnues with appropriate faction jams?
[19:23] <5pitf1re> If we can't change ECM I'd really say that triage should have 100% ECM resistance.
[19:23] <eliserandolph> assuming 4 racial jammers on a kitune
[19:23] <capqu> sounds fine to me elise
[19:24] <capqu> if u cant kill 8 kitsunes with a fleet being supported by fax then i dunno i feel like they should be rewarded
[19:24] <eliserandolph> the kitsunes can do this at 140km
[19:24] <capqu> yeah and you can pop them at 220 with one pete
[19:24] <capqu> whats the problem
[19:24] <eliserandolph> it requires every doctrine to be able to fire at 140km
[19:24] <capqu> not really, you could also bring 2 kitsunes of your own
[19:25] <capqu> and jam theirs
[19:25] <5pitf1re> Think w-space brawls.
[19:25] <capqu> or damps
[19:25] <capqu> etc
[19:25] <capqu> its not like its uncounterable
[19:25] <eliserandolph> the issue is not that it's uncounterable
[19:25] <capqu> whats the issue
[19:26] <eliserandolph> the counterplay is disproportionate
[19:26] <capqu> lots of counterplay is disproportionate though - look at trying to kill a triage currently
[19:27] <capqu> trying to kill petes, t3 blobs etc
[19:27] <eliserandolph> "other stuff is also broken" is kind of a terrible argument though
[19:27] <capqu> okay how about this
[19:27] <capqu> to 50% a fax
[19:27] <capqu> if it takes 8 kitsunes
[19:27] <capqu> how is that a problem
[19:27] <capqu> kitsunes are not hard to deal with
[19:27] <capqu> are a niche ship
[19:28] <capqu> fragile
[19:28] <capqu> 8 pilots
[19:28] <capqu> and even then you're saying 50% so its not guarenteed
[19:28] <capqu> i dont think thats a problem at all
[19:29] <capqu> and i bet with a coup;le eccm the amount you need swings drastically
[19:29] <capqu> so if "dealing" with a significant amount of enemies focusing on ecm involves equipping 2 eccm
[19:29] <capqu> then i dont think its a problem
[19:30] <5pitf1re> capqu: they are cheap, small and fast
[19:30] <5pitf1re> you can instantly replace them
[19:30] <5pitf1re> You can have a couple in a carrier's SMB with you
[19:31] <capqu> you realise how fast frigates 150 off a real fleet die?
[19:31] <capqu> they wont even have a chance to ecm the carrier
[19:31] <5pitf1re> I think you are overestimating things a bit right now.
[19:32] <capqu> says the man who thinks 8 kitsunes with a 50% chance to jam ur fax with all racial jammers are a problem
[19:32] <5pitf1re> Plus let's say it is a pure brawling doctrine, what then?
[19:32] <capqu> then it has more problems than kitsunes jamming its fax
[19:33] <eliserandolph> your arguement is that every doctrine has to be able to hit to 140
[19:33] <capqu> no it isnt
[19:33] <capqu> eccm
[19:33] <capqu> damps
[19:33] <eliserandolph> this is taking into account ECCM
[19:34] <capqu> what ur implying is u cant be expected to deal with frigates 140km away
[19:34] <capqu> and i have a hard time accepting that
[19:34] <eliserandolph> I'm implying that the ideal counter to fax shoudln't be 200mil in frigates
[19:35] <capqu> well i bet bombers with focused voids work better and they dont cost 200 mil
[19:35] <5pitf1re> So, you are saying ECM the way it is now and the way it'll be, after hearing eliserandolph's estimations is fine?
[19:35] <capqu> so i wouldnt call them the ideal counter
[19:35] <capqu> a doomsday probably works quite a bit better too
[19:35] <5pitf1re> capqu: keep in mind that there are no doomsdays in w-space
[19:35] <capqu> who cares
[19:35] <capqu> about stupid fuckin
[19:36] <5pitf1re> ugh
[19:36] <capqu> t3&dreads vs t3&dreads
[19:36] <capqu> noone
[19:36] <capqu> fuck wh space
[19:36] <eliserandolph> lmao aite good talk boys
[19:36] <5pitf1re> I rest my case.
[19:36] <capqu> man kitsunes lock
[19:36] <capqu> is barely fuckin 140 with links
[19:37] <capqu> and a sigamp
[19:37] <capqu> just bring 1 maulus per 4 kitsunes
[19:37] <capqu> 1 pilot in a t1 piece of shit shuts down 4 in a t2
[19:37] <capqu> now we're talkin disproportionate
[19:38] <eliserandolph> ~do you know how easy it is to deal with a maulus~
[19:38] <capqu> yea exactly
[19:38] <capqu> its a joke
[19:38] <eliserandolph> oh man tildes make strikethrough on slack too
[19:38] <capqu> just like kitsunes
[19:39] <5pitf1re> Unless that 1 t1 piece of shit which is extremely susceptible to ECM gets perma-jammed
[19:39] <5pitf1re> Because t1.
[19:39] <capqu> look the way i see it
[19:39] <capqu> if they are dedicating people to ecm u
[19:39] <capqu> then u should have to dedicate people to stopping that
[19:39] <capqu> however u want, there are lots of options
[19:40] <capqu> couple combat ceptors with a prober, something anti-frigate in ur blob, ur blob being anti-frigate, damps etc
[19:42] <eliserandolph> Surely the point of taking triage is to act as a force multiplier which limits what you can do and saying "just N+1 it #yolo" is a bit silly but w/e this conversation has gone nowhere except "lmao fuck w-space that's lame" which I will concede was hilarious
[19:42] <capqu> i mean taking anything specialized should act as a force multiplier right
[19:43] <capqu> dont you think 8 kitsunes is something along those lines
[19:44] <capqu> i get that its cool to hate on ecm but i dont think its that bad
[20:35] <nync> @eliserandolph: talking to capqu and rocket about jam, is like talking to a wall
[20:36] <nync> it's absolutely waste of time
[20:36] <capqu> i dont know about that
[20:36] <nync> like rocket other day told me, that if i'm jumping 25 dreds into titans, im dumb as fuck and already lost
[20:36] <capqu> well hes right in most cases
[20:37] <nync> same like, if you jumping 50 man gang with fax, into 100, you are dumb
[20:37] <capqu> unless you intend to suicide ona travelfit dread or something
[20:37] <capqu> travel fit titan* even
[20:38] <nync> since if you jumping 50 man into 100 and your fax can be jammed by 10 kitsunes staying at distance, then whats the point in fighting
[20:38] <nync> and whats the point in having a fax?
[20:39] <capqu> whats the point in life
[20:39] <capqu> our existance is meaningless
[20:40] <nync> read bulgakov
[20:40] <capqu> master and margarita right
[20:42] <nync> exactly
[20:42] <nync> first scene
[20:42] <nync> with bertolioz
[20:42] <nync> and Annushka spilling sunseed oil
[20:49] <titus.tallang> wtf did i walk into
[21:17] <originalname_iv> What the fuck
[21:24] <5pitf1re> ssssh, don't make loud noises!
[23:32] <max_kolonko> Wow, whats going on?
[23:34] <max_kolonko> Ecm, im not goint into that river again :)
[23:44] <nync> when rocket talks about ecm stacking penalties , light jam drone victims cry in despair
[23:44] <max_kolonko> ecm is the only n+1 ewar
[23:44] <max_kolonko> thats the problem
[23:44] <max_kolonko> you can argue if anount of n you have to sacrifice is enough or not
[23:44] <max_kolonko> but you can always n+1
[23:45] <max_kolonko> and dice rols are bitch
[23:45] <max_kolonko> you can keep something perma jammed with 1 ec-300 if he is unlucky
[23:46] <max_kolonko> or have a t1 frigte not jammed even though falcon have full rack of racial jams on him
[23:47] <nync> true
[23:47] <nync> but few guys in here
[23:47] <nync> have to big ego to admit it
[23:52] <max_kolonko> talking about stacking penalties and drones
[23:52] <max_kolonko> god i wish someone did something with ewar drones
[23:52] <max_kolonko> having essentially another ewar module in the form of flight of drones would be great
[23:53] <max_kolonko> there should be some exception from normal stacking penalty in there
[23:53] <max_kolonko> again - ecm drones works because no stacking penaltiesd