[09:31] <scott_ormands> That feel when you try to buy a super and the seller says he's so afraid of wrecking crew he won't use Chribba or Grendel. Idk if he's stupid or scamming
[09:32] <scott_ormands> So gg rocket lol
[09:57] <titus.tallang> i'll 3rd party for you :=)
[10:32] <titus.tallang> 20, 40, yes, no
[10:45] <scott_ormands> 20, 40, yes but needs more than one scram to disable (maybe half total wcs), no
[10:45] <titus.tallang> (20 and 40 because it's above what a full rack of scrams does)
[10:45] <titus.tallang> and two racks of scrams
[10:45] <titus.tallang> respectively
[10:50] <scott_ormands> Maybe half is to much but I'm not really liking that the need can be shut off on a super as easily as on a frigate. It should be possible but not be able to do it solo.
[11:32] <sebastien_st.frusquin> @ccp_larrikin: on that topic, I believe some UI tweak will be in order
[11:32] <sebastien_st.frusquin> the icons above the capacitor indicating what effects you are under are neat, the drop down menus to lock the offenders is nice as well
[11:33] <sebastien_st.frusquin> but with WCS becoming an actual part of PVP
[11:33] <sebastien_st.frusquin> I think there should be a number displayed telling you under what amount of point you are
[11:34] <sebastien_st.frusquin> if the quality of life argument doesn't convince you, well, any supercapital pilot scrammed will spend the entire time spamming warp or jump, adding to server load :simple_smile:
[11:46] <ccp_larrikin> Hah, its something we're looking at, it may not get in for the expansion but we're going to try
[11:47] <sebastien_st.frusquin> cool
[11:47] <sebastien_st.frusquin> Happy New Year btw
[12:01] <sebastien_st.frusquin> also
[12:02] <sebastien_st.frusquin> are there plans to increase the scram strength of higher meta scrams ?
[12:02] <sebastien_st.frusquin> and introduce deadspace versions ?
[12:19] <max_kolonko> What about full rack of faction scram, getting that sweet 24 points from single ship? I think that 25 / 50 is better. Also even if you look at single point / single scram ships 20 is just single squad of scram frigs
[12:20] <max_kolonko> As for mwd on capitals and sceam - it should take more than single scram to shut it down
[12:30] <titus.tallang> ccp_larrikin: have you looked at the chimera btw?
[12:30] <titus.tallang> its fitting space is messed up with repairer tiericide
[12:30] <titus.tallang> > What about full rack of faction scram, getting that sweet 24 points from single ship?
[12:30] <titus.tallang> meh, i'm fine with that tbf if you wanna sink that much isk into the ship
[12:31] <titus.tallang> also>just single squad of scram frigs
[12:31] <titus.tallang> being able to tackle a super is kind of the whole point isn't it?
[12:37] <max_kolonko> Yes, i just believe that the barrier should be above psychological barrier of single squad
[12:37] <max_kolonko> Just to be said its one of thise thing that incredibly easy to iterate on after release
[12:38] <max_kolonko> So 20/40 is a good starting point
[12:51] <jezza_mcwaffle> @ccp_larrikin: As said above please look at the fitting room on the chimera in regards to PG and ninja fix it.
[12:51] <jezza_mcwaffle> Also any update on potential changes to refitting? I wrote up a nice document on my PC which decided to die in a blaze of corruption :disappointed:
[12:51] <jezza_mcwaffle> I talked to a few other groups in W-space and while they all disliked changes to refitting they also all thought that creating a refitting timer per module (5-10 secs) was a better solution since you still engaged in the fight rather than sitting on the naughty step for 60 seconds.
[13:17] <ccp_larrikin> @titus.tallang: @jezza_mcwaffle re: Chimera its something I'll have a look at
[13:17] <ccp_larrikin> @jezza_mcwaffle: re: refitting, its something I'm going to post about next week and start discussing
[13:18] <jezza_mcwaffle> Cool :simple_smile:
[13:20] <max_kolonko> Great
[13:22] <max_kolonko> @jezza_mcwaffle: i feel your pain. My main pc just stoped wirking with nice smell of burned electronics :/
[13:23] <5pitf1re> the thing with the refitting timer per module is that it feels like a very artificial and arbitrary mechanic
[13:23] <5pitf1re> remind me again, which issues is this supposed to solve?
[13:49] <max_kolonko> Issue with ship being able to change its weaknes/powers/role mid flight. And dont say refiting being counter to badly balanced fleets. If you fitted your capital against damage instead of neut pressure that is your choice when undocking/leaving forcefield. And just because there exists in universe way to block reffiting by bumping/killing reffiting partner (this onky work in certain situations) does not nake it more justified.
[13:50] <max_kolonko> Refitting timer is a compronuse between the two. You xan refit, but it will take valuable time to do it.
[13:54] <5pitf1re> Where is this a problem specifically?
[13:57] <max_kolonko> Exactly where a ship, especially ship capable withstain significant panishment, adapt to whatever enemy brings. Exactly there. The difference between us is that whatever or not we see this as a problem or not.
[14:02] <5pitf1re> Would this measure prolong or shorten engagements?
[14:02] <5pitf1re> Would it encourage or discourage capital usage?
[14:04] <max_kolonko> My point is that we shoukd loom at capital fron the start at level where refitting bring them today, and give them base stats slighly lower than its min-maxed version, but still higher than base fitting gave them (if this sentence make sense to you)
[14:04] <max_kolonko> Sory for typeos, i hate my phone ketboard
[14:08] <5pitf1re> I think I know what you mean, I'm just worried that this would lead to power creep.
[14:09] <5pitf1re> If you bake stats into the hull to compensate for a human skill, you are going to buff the hull.
[14:15] <max_kolonko> I am worried about that
[14:24] <ccp_larrikin> Interesting side question, taking this to extremes, if refitting gameplay is fun why don't we allow all ships to refit in combat?
[14:29] <ccp_larrikin> i.e. remove all requirements to having a carrier or mobile depo
[14:29] <xttz> I'm concerned that the assumption of "refitting=fun" will end up resulting in refitting being virtually essential and required for large scale pvp
[14:29] <ccp_larrikin> just let all ships refit everywhere whenever?
[14:29] <xttz> we're already seeing it trickle down into very-high-ehp Machariel doctrines
[14:29] <ccp_larrikin> Yup
[14:31] <xttz> just because you can do fun things by changing fits during a fight, doesn't necessarily mean the minimum requirement to fight should be a cargo bay full of alternative fits
[14:32] <5pitf1re> why not go about it the other way around
[14:32] <xttz> There's actually a pretty good argument to make that smaller ships should be more capable for refitting in combat than larger ones
[14:32] <5pitf1re> have refitting in space be a pure capital thing
[14:33] <ccp_larrikin> @5pitf1re: why would all ships being able to refit always be bad for the game?
[14:33] <xttz> BS & capitals are more durable and therefore should have some sort of penalty compared to frigates whose effect on a fight will be far less
[14:33] <ccp_larrikin> @xttz: I think that argument has a lot of validity.
[14:34] <5pitf1re> xttz you're destroy the solo and micro gang meta
[14:34] <5pitf1re> possibly even FW
[14:35] <5pitf1re> "Oh hey, I'm tackled! Oh no, I can't win this fight, let's refit to stabs and peace out."
[14:35] <xttz> I'm pretty sure that the existing meta won't last very long with the scale of changes already on the way
[14:35] <5pitf1re> I'm talking about subcaps
[14:36] <5pitf1re> Think FW frigate meta for example.
[14:36] <5pitf1re> Or generally lowsec/nullsec solo or micro gang meta.
[14:37] <titus.tallang> removal of refitting options is currently a tactical option
[14:37] <5pitf1re> It would also directly buff ECM.
[14:37] <titus.tallang> if you remove this reliance then you remove this option
[14:43] <xttz> Consider this (just thinking out loud here):
[14:43] <xttz> * Overhaul the UI for refitting so it's easier to drag new modules to replace current ones, and generally make it easier to use.
[14:43] <xttz> * Add a visual timer for installing modules with a low default time (say 1-2secs per module)
[14:43] <xttz> * Ships in combat have a penalty to that timer (some multiplier, to be defined)
[14:43] <xttz> * Add the ability to affect refitting time (positively or negatively) via some combination of skills, implants, rigs, hull role bonuses, or remote assistance / ewar modules
[14:45] <xttz> refitting could be something you can specialise in to do more efficiently, adding more choice and depth for those who want to use it
[14:47] <max_kolonko> Since im oposed to current mechanics of refitting im even more against remowing all boundries
[14:47] <max_kolonko> Level of entry would skyrocket
[14:47] <max_kolonko> You can not compete unless you know not only what enemy have now but what he possible can refit too
[14:48] <max_kolonko> And know exactly at every scrnario hoe to counter it - all in the middle of fight
[14:48] <xttz> What if there was a module to help you there? Like remote tracking disruptors but for refitting
[14:48] <max_kolonko> Thats not hiw you want new players introduced to the game
[14:48] <xttz> this model allows for that
[14:48] <xttz> you can bring a hard counter
[14:48] <max_kolonko> Basically only for capitals
[14:48] <titus.tallang> sounds gimmicky
[14:48] <titus.tallang> i don't like it
[14:49] <max_kolonko> You dont expect frigs sudenly.changing fit to counter your fit
[14:49] <xttz> Also moving the restriction from the weapons timer to the module would make things more granular; small changes would go through quicker but full refits would take some commitment
[14:49] <max_kolonko> I agree with mode timer, but you should still require fitting service
[14:50] <xttz> yeah
[14:50] <xttz> I think the fitting service creates a valuable role for some ships
[14:50] <xttz> also removing that requirement basically makes depots almost irrelevant
[14:51] <5pitf1re> I'd remove in-space refitting ability from a capital ship on all subcaps.
[14:51] <5pitf1re> subcaps that want to refit would have to do it on a mobile depot
[14:51] <max_kolonko> Adding module that prevents / prolongs teffiting will only make it obligatory in capital fight
[14:56] <xttz> How do you know? Refitting isn't used in every capital fight now and there's little restriction on it
[14:57] <titus.tallang> we already have bumping for refitting counterplay
[15:04] <lamhoofd_hashur> i was thinking about refitting in NS a bit... and figured out another problem wrt being able to refit instantly
[15:05] <lamhoofd_hashur> there is one point of validity which I can understand from a NS perspective: Imagine you jump in 50 supers, which lose 65%+ of their cap while jumping. They jump, refit to cap power relays and full cap fit and within <30 seconds they are all full cap again, even if they are in the middle of pvp.
[16:05] <max_kolonko> @xttz: ok, every small gang capital fight
[16:13] <sebastien_st.frusquin> @lamhoofd_hashur: nearly nobody does that in practice
[16:13] <sebastien_st.frusquin> because for one, you don't particularly need full cap, it'll get there eventually due to the cap chain
[16:14] <sebastien_st.frusquin> and also, it makes you hideously vulnerable
[16:15] <sebastien_st.frusquin> Here is another aspect of refitting
[16:17] <titus.tallang> cap chain is going away
[16:18] <sebastien_st.frusquin> so are remote reps, which were the only reason you needed the cap chain in the first place
[16:28] <sebastien_st.frusquin> @xttz: depots are irrelevant in a combat context, they are useful for everything else though, like solo travel
[16:28] <sebastien_st.frusquin> on the other hand
[16:28] <titus.tallang> not really
[16:28] <titus.tallang> depots are really useful in wspace
[16:28] <sebastien_st.frusquin> in combat ?
[16:28] <titus.tallang> yes
[16:29] <titus.tallang> a lot harder to kill in smaller fleet sizes when the triage can rep them
[16:29] <titus.tallang> we've had them used against us before
[16:29] <sebastien_st.frusquin> didn't think you had that low alpha, but yeah I guess it can happen
[16:29] <sebastien_st.frusquin> fair enough
[16:30] <titus.tallang> it can happen especially when you don't wanna leave the hole
[16:30] <sebastien_st.frusquin> though in WH were getting even a single capital is no trivial task, it's kinda a good thing that depots can be used
[16:32] <lamhoofd_hashur> we kill depots within the deployment time, so it is really for small fleets an issue
[16:32] <titus.tallang> yes
[16:32] <sebastien_st.frusquin> indeed
[16:37] <5pitf1re> are cap chains going away though?
[16:37] <5pitf1re> I can only remember remote reps to be mentioned.
[16:38] <5pitf1re> @ccp_larrikin: are capital remote capacitor transmitters going away too?
[16:38] <sebastien_st.frusquin> at the very least one can assume the rang bonus will be removed
[16:41] <ccp_larrikin> @5pitf1re: carriers will be losing any bonus to them atleast
[16:41] <ccp_larrikin> probably
[16:41] <sebastien_st.frusquin> whether or not they will be fitted (assuming the possibility will remain) will depend on your choice of hutility high slots and their capacitor needs, but the Capital-size cap booster may end up the better choice
[16:41] <sebastien_st.frusquin> like it is right now for non-logistic ships
[16:42] <5pitf1re> probably
[16:42] <sebastien_st.frusquin> @ccp_larrikin: tell whoever is in charge that I like a lot the beta launcher, as someone that switch often between chars and accounts it's really really useful
[16:43] <5pitf1re> yep, gj there
[16:43] <5pitf1re> also as someone who uses singularity a lot
[16:45] <steveronuken> takes all the credit, as he put up a confluence posting listing all the things he wanted. :wink:
[16:46] <steveronuken> (this is one of the problems when someone asks 'what have you done for me'. Because _can_ I claim credit? almost certainly not in entirity. quite possibly not even a little)
[16:46] <gorski_car> DONT ASK WHAT CSM CAN DO FOR YOU ASK WAHT YOU CAN DO FOR CSM
[16:46] <5pitf1re> steveronuken: I don't believe you.
[16:46] <5pitf1re> :smile:
[16:46] <sebastien_st.frusquin> always claim credit anyway, not like people will give credit away like candy
[16:47] <5pitf1re> send me your credits and I'll double them
[16:48] <steveronuken> @steveronuken uploaded a file: Untitled https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/files/steveronuken/F0J1G3F8C/-.txt
[16:48] <steveronuken> does a little C&P
[16:49] <5pitf1re> danq CSM leaqs
[16:49] <steveronuken> the unknown user bit is because my csm 9 account was deleted, and I got a new csm 10 one :smile:
[16:49] <titus.tallang> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XooISvoZ_rs
[16:49] <steveronuken> :smile:
[16:50] <steveronuken> (I've had to put up with people at work doing that. Every damn time they come to talk to me)
[16:50] <5pitf1re> haha
[16:59] <titus.tallang> i can totally understand the urge to do that
[17:07] <steveronuken> (I look nothing like neo. But I do work with computers...)
[21:25] <sebastien_st.frusquin> I added more words on the WCS question, but they are hidden by the downvotes on my original answer :simple_smile:
[21:25] <sebastien_st.frusquin> https://www.reddit.com/r/evecapitalfocusgroup/comments/400kqk/feedback_wanted_warp_core_strength/cyr2vwm