[13:16] <ccp_larrikin> I am sick at looking at numbers. I am sure I've screwed up some numbers so I'm keen for you good gentlemen to go over them with a fine tooth comb :simple_smile:
[13:20] <steveronuken> 1 42 434123 12
[13:20] <steveronuken> :wink:
[13:21] <darren_fox> Can we expect XL T2 ammo to be the same as Large T2 ammo
[13:21] <darren_fox> In terms of improvement over T1, etc
[13:22] <steveronuken> Are those the HAGs in there for turrets? (the ones with the low damage multiplier)
[13:22] <jezza_mcwaffle> Looking at those bonuses I'm still concerned the phoenix will be too strong (since mods mids plus resist bonus) and the revelation will still suck massive ass (low damage and wasted bonus)
[13:22] <steveronuken> (I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. but I'm not sure)
[13:23] <tinkerhell> thats a big drop in dps
[13:23] <5pitf1re> wait a sec
[13:23] <5pitf1re> besides the big drop in damage, why are all dreads same nowß
[13:23] <5pitf1re> damage-wise
[13:24] <ccp_larrikin> @5pitf1re: And yes, the damage numbers will def change (they won't be identical between races), but they are being used as a baseline for now.
[13:24] <ccp_larrikin> "And yes, the damage numbers will def change (they won't be identical between races), but they are being used as a baseline for now." <-- from the post
[13:24] <steveronuken> And do the HAGs take Large or XL ammo for the guns? (I'm suspecting XL)
[13:24] <5pitf1re> I see
[13:25] <tinkerhell> the ranges are the same to now?
[13:26] <ccp_larrikin> @tinkerhell: "I havn't included tracking info / ranges yet as I'm not finished my first pass on the stats" <-- from the post
[13:27] <tinkerhell> didnt see :stuck_out_tongue:
[13:31] <darren_fox> What about ewar resistance?
[13:32] <ccp_larrikin> Regarding the damage change, a Moros, with max skills, 3 T2 damage mods, T1 guns and T1 anti matter does 11k DPS. Introducing T2 guns / T2 ammo makes those numbers ridiculous. While there is almost a 40% damgae difference between the Rev and Moros (Admittedly lowest/highest dreads). We need to establish a new baseline
[13:33] <ccp_larrikin> @darren_fox: hasn't been decided yet
[14:59] <5pitf1re> I get that, and I did not say that you're wrong there. I was talking about heat damage.
[15:00] <nync> and i was trying to point, that ccp guy rebalancing caps, have no idea on guns
[15:00] <nync> whatsoever
[15:00] <nync> got my point?
[15:14] <ccp_larrikin> ahaha what @nync ?
[15:20] <nync> it's a discussion
[15:20] <nync> let's discuss you have no idea on why ppl use faction cap guns
[15:20] <ccp_larrikin> @nync facton cap guns don't exist in the game yet mate.
[15:20] <tinkerhell> try not being so aggressive in your discussion then :confused:
[15:21] <nync> as you wish boss
[15:21] <tinkerhell> and the current cap guns are meta, not faction
[15:21] <ccp_larrikin> ^^^
[15:21] <nync> @tinkerhell: smartbomb or smartasss
[15:23] <rocket_x> the r/eve thread is amazing
[15:23] <rocket_x> Y U NERFIN MAH DRED NUTS
[15:23] <rocket_x> lol
[15:24] <ccp_larrikin> Its interesting. I wonder if people are forgetting about T2 guns/ammo?
[15:25] <tinkerhell> yes
[15:25] <rocket_x> yeah they are,
[15:25] <rocket_x> and the fact that faction damage mods vs t2
[15:25] <rocket_x> lex is badposting again :stuck_out_tongue:
[15:25] <rocket_x> @lex_arson: I C U THAR M8
[15:26] <lex_arson> Heh
[15:27] <lex_arson> Can we have these discussions again in like 5 hrs
[15:27] <lex_arson> When I can participate :disappointed:
[15:27] <tinkerhell> i do hate the cap cost reduction bonus on the revelation :disappointed:
[15:28] <tinkerhell> If the gun can only be fitted on two ships, if the titan still has them, surely it just means the Laser is costing too much cap in the first place?
[15:28] <lex_arson> Yeah
[15:28] <lex_arson> Amarr still spending their bonuses on stats that other ships have by default
[15:36] <scott_ormands> @ccp_larrikin: just out of curiosity, when you did the internal citadel play test were you using these numbers, current numbers or something else?
[15:37] <ccp_larrikin> @scott_ormands: existing numbers. You should not take the citadel play test as a balancing playtest though
[15:37] <scott_ormands> sure, didnt think that was the case but im just mulling the general ideas in my head
[18:13] <lordsservant> ustz discussion would be great :simple_smile:
[18:13] <lordsservant> just caught up
[18:13] <lordsservant> iirc there was a post on fhc about rebalancing faction vs non faction vs meta guns a while back
[18:13] <lordsservant> they had a few nice ideas
[18:14] <lordsservant> basically you fit the faction guns for the job you want or w.e
[18:14] <lordsservant> some had higher damage, some had longer range, some had better tracking or w/e
[18:14] <lordsservant> memory is a bit fuzzy
[18:14] <lordsservant> I wouldnt do t2 ammo in faction guns
[18:14] <lordsservant> also, chiming in to say wasted bonus on rev is wasted
[18:15] <lordsservant> and outside of dps numbers, the alpha on phoenix needs to be looked at as well
[18:15] <lordsservant> the xl torps doing the most alpha of any xl weapon at present is part of why they're so strong
[18:15] <lordsservant> the nags can get close, but need to use the LR version of their weps
[18:25] <5pitf1re> lordsservant: the lower meta variations are pretty much doing just what FHC people suggested faction guns should do
[19:08] <5pitf1re> @ccp_larrikin: any idea what will happen with current meta guns/launchers?
[19:26] <capqu> turn to faction i'd assume
[20:39] <lamhoofd_hashur> looking at these bonuses i don't think you are solving the problem with the rev
[20:40] <lamhoofd_hashur> which is a combi of capacitor use of the guns, lack of dps and (sustained) tank
[20:40] <lamhoofd_hashur> i see the 3rd being resolved, the 2nd maybe a bit, the 1st not at all
[20:45] <max_kolonko> I missed a lot it seems
[20:47] <max_kolonko> @ccp_larrikin: So apart from numbers being subject to change - why are rev and phoenix kept at the lowest damage across all weapon types? Since we are rebalancing those weapons is there a real reason behind haveing the two dominant dreads at the top? while having two underdogs kept as underdog?
[20:48] <lamhoofd_hashur> currently a moros in T2 Siege using T1 Ammo, T1 Guns, 3x T2 Damage Mods, Max Skills does 11092 dps, Using faction ammo, meta 1 guns and this goes up to 14190 dps, which is an 28% increase... with T2 guns that goes to 40ish%... so for all the numbers i´m seeing i should multiply them with 1.4 to get realistic new numbers i have to deal with
[20:49] <lamhoofd_hashur> giving HAW 3.5k dps and SR 10.5k
[20:49] <max_kolonko> reddit thread assumes: Damage from Dreads in T2S iege using T1 Ammo, T1 Guns/Launchers, 3x T2 Damage Mods, Max skills
[20:49] <lamhoofd_hashur> yep
[20:49] <max_kolonko> ahh ok
[20:49] <max_kolonko> missread your post
[20:50] <lamhoofd_hashur> i was looking for normal fits in w-space, to make them comparable :simple_smile:
[20:50] <max_kolonko> so esentially what is proposed is all round nerf
[20:51] <lamhoofd_hashur> and also a tracking nerf
[20:51] <max_kolonko> hovewer at the same time we are nerfing ehp on caps
[20:51] <max_kolonko> unless plated
[20:51] <lamhoofd_hashur> so even though i am saying these numbers, i am not even sure whether that damage can be applied properly to what targets
[20:52] <max_kolonko> i dont see tracking numbers in the reddit post?
[20:52] <lamhoofd_hashur> there are none
[20:52] <lamhoofd_hashur> but the intention is that SR guns can't shoot BS/Cruisers anymore
[20:52] <lamhoofd_hashur> so tracking needs to be nerfed
[20:52] <max_kolonko> also remember that capital sig in increased, so we can assume that capital vs capital You will hit
[20:53] <max_kolonko> yes, you have HAW for that
[20:53] <max_kolonko> so no point in looking how "old tracking" compares to new meta where you only use those guns on structures and other capitals
[20:53] <lamhoofd_hashur> i don't trust the application on those (yet) :wink:
[20:54] <max_kolonko> also for all we know this can be done the same way as with new fighters "X% penalty to damage if tareget is not capital etc"
[20:54] <max_kolonko> without touching tracking
[20:54] <max_kolonko> for the HAW though it will be super important
[20:55] <max_kolonko> and we have no info on this yet