[12:54] <kennethfeld> ccphabakuk: Are you QA? Some of the less outward faces of CCP are hard to remember responsibilities sometimes...
[12:54] <ccphabakuk> Yes, QA.
[12:54] <ccphabakuk> "Master of Singularity"
[12:54] <ccphabakuk> :slightly_smiling_face:
[12:55] <kennethfeld> I think i dealt with you when the patch had to be delayed for like 2 days during a quickie mass test...
[12:55] <ccphabakuk> easily possible :slightly_smiling_face:
[12:58] <ccphabakuk> I'm mostly here to look out for possible edge cases with this or even exploits, otherwise i'll try to stay in the background :wink:
[12:59] <kennethfeld> There is a fine line between scams and exploits involving contracts
[13:00] <ccphabakuk> this is true indeed.
[13:00] <kennethfeld> citadels introduce about 4-5 more uncertainties as well, which makes the line even more ambiguous
[13:05] <querns> my opinion on that is that you want to err on the side of protecting the courier
[13:05] <querns> as funny as scams are, hauling is at once really important and really fucking boring
[13:05] <querns> they deserve some QOL
[13:09] <kennethfeld> Engineering out all of the scams is just as boring, but yes, overall if we don't protect the courier, people will just stop doing it. That beign said protecting private courier vs public courier are vastly different models and ideology
[13:10] <kennethfeld> public couriers can and should have more risk on both sides of the contract
[13:11] <ccp_fozzie> There's no need to intentionally leave room for scams, because we know that scammers will find a way
[13:14] <nasantha> To be fair, there is probably enough room in the current contracting system that if it is expanded to citadels then there will be more opportunities for scammers already
[13:15] <nasantha> this is before even considering access issues, what happens if the citadel gets destroyed etc.
[14:39] <steveronuken> access issues would be the key problem. Because you can't lock them when a contract goes out, and you probably don't want to add a 'people with courier contracts delivering here, can always dock'
[14:40] <steveronuken> (especially since many people don't have the contract accepted on the person doing the delivery)
[14:45] <kennethfeld> Yeah, having the package itself contain a key to docking is/was always my thought. That in itself provides for some intel though. Think red frog (or black - which ever is the JF service) you know who accepts your contract, they cyno in and dock - now you know at least one of the OOC jf alts used to deliver and who to target for ganking
[14:47] <kennethfeld> probably no real way around that, but if someone who has docking rights sets up a courier, that "Courier package" should have docking rights - but then that allows someone to bring in a myriad of items along with the courier
[14:51] <nasantha> Black Frog is the JF service. The other interesting point would be, how would the cyno pilot dock in this case if the "key" is linked to the package and they are an out of corp alt (which is not unusual).
[14:56] <kennethfeld> cyno doesn't need to dock and lighting cyno breaks tether anyway
[15:39] <nasantha> true, fair enough. The key idea with the package is ok as an idea. How would the key work though? Would it work if you had the package in your assets list? That is about the only way I can think of it working for collections from a citadel. Deliveries to a citadel it could be in the ship.
[15:40] <steveronuken> Giving the courier package rights to dock would allow people to bypass docking restrictions though. Especially if there's a spy
[15:45] <kennethfeld> @steveronuken: That is why the second part of my plan revolves around the owner of the citadel having 2 checkboxes, one checkbox is for public couriers - meaning anyone can put up a contract to the citadel and it can be fulfilled by anyone
[15:46] <steveronuken> :slightly_smiling_face:
[15:46] <kennethfeld> the second checkbox would be some sort of check on whom can either make a contract and select the citadel as a origination or destination or no couriers at all
[15:46] <querns> seems overcomplicated, why not just have no-fault returns if the destination becomes undockable for the courier haver
[15:46] <kennethfeld> make it an ACL of people allowed to make a contract either from or to that citadel
[15:47] <kennethfeld> querns: because by the time the JF realizes he can't dock, he is dead
[15:48] <querns> maybe possible to remotely query if they can dock at destination?
[15:48] <kennethfeld> that won't work - I put up contract - wait until JF docks, i remove docking - they undock, i point, they die
[15:48] <querns> this is different from outposts today how?
[15:49] <kennethfeld> same could be said watching them undock from jita, i remove t as soon as they undock, or when cyno goes up
[15:49] <kennethfeld> outposts don't have a realistic public option
[15:49] <querns> sure they do
[15:49] <kennethfeld> also, no outposts in lowsec or high sec
[15:50] <querns> yeah -- it's meant to serve as an example of what can happen today
[15:51] <kennethfeld> if you get a courier to high sec or lowsec today, you CAN dock - period
[15:51] <querns> that is not what i said
[15:51] <querns> what i said is you can get into a position today
[15:51] <querns> where you can't dock at a destination
[15:51] <querns> the fact that that situation isn't possible today in high/low is irrelevant
[15:51] <kennethfeld> but you can EASILY see if you can dock at an outpost, by looking at standings - or at least have a very very good idea
[15:52] <querns> an outpost can be configured to allow anyone to dock
[15:52] <querns> regardless of standings
[15:52] <kennethfeld> yes
[15:52] <kennethfeld> never said it couldn't
[15:52] <kennethfeld> I said it wasn't relaistic, because the way the settings are, you get into conviluted repair costs and discounts and all that crap
[15:53] <kennethfeld> PFR did it and administrating the outpost settings was a nightmare
[15:53] <querns> lol if you set any of that stuff
[15:54] <kennethfeld> by and large today - if you accept a contract to sov nullsec that contract won't be public in nature
[15:55] <kennethfeld> how much do we need to cater to making it viable for public contracts to go to citadels in the future - because Citadels will exist in high/low/null/WH environments
[15:56] <querns> i think the ability to make public couriers to citadels is pretty goddamn essential
[15:56] <kennethfeld> exactly
[15:56] <kennethfeld> where before it wasn't essential for sov null
[15:56] <querns> it's still not essential for sov null
[15:56] <querns> but essential overall
[15:56] <kennethfeld> but that was easy to seperate from low/high sec
[15:57] <kennethfeld> but now you have the same structures in all 4 areas of space
[15:57] <cpt_patrick_archer> I think adding a "key" to courier packages is a bad idea. Can't you just hide contracts where you can't dock in a similar way as citadels not showing on overviews?
[15:58] <nasantha> How would that work after you have accepted the contract and your docking rights get revoked before you got there?
[15:58] <kennethfeld> that is probably the 50 bil isk question, we don't know what parts of contracts can ping ACL's for permissions or anything...at leats i din't
[15:59] <steveronuken> It's also a different kettle of fish scale wise.
[15:59] <steveronuken> one is 'all citadels in the same system'. The other is 'all citadels which have contracts going to them'.
[15:59] <kennethfeld> I mean there is already a high/low/null check box for couriers
[15:59] <kennethfeld> easy to do high sec only - only the island screw you then
[16:00] <kennethfeld> but, that is same as now
[16:00] <cpt_patrick_archer> @nasantha: how does it work now? Cause outposts have the same "problem"
[16:00] <querns> my worry was less "does the JF get destroyed while doing the courier" and more "does the courier get screwed out of collateral"
[16:00] <kennethfeld> they way it works now, is freight companies have agreements with sov holders for docking rights
[16:00] <kennethfeld> but that is a PRIVATE courier, that won't change much, if at all
[16:01] <nasantha> don't outposts have a delay to change standings, thus docking rights?
[16:01] <querns> basically the case that's interesting here is lowsec public couriers
[16:01] <kennethfeld> anythign private, i don't see changing much, we can add whomever to ACL's get standings sorted etc, that is the easy part. If you are doign a private courier, you want them there and you will allow them to dock
[16:01] <kennethfeld> nasantha: yes
[16:02] <kennethfeld> querns: lowsec and npc null
[16:02] <kennethfeld> especially if it is station less
[16:02] <querns> though we are a little bit in a vacuum right now -- we don't know if there is any expectation for courier safety to citadels in Non-Highsec
[16:03] <querns> like if that is just straight up a thing that isn't desired by game dev then it's sort of moot
[16:04] <kennethfeld> querns: you weren't around for the first few months of the structures channel - we would discuss soemthign for hours and then nullarbor would jump in and say - sry, can't do that, we are doing this and we basicallt wasted 4 hours making it good only to be told - not technically feasible
[16:04] <querns> i missed the beginning yeah, but i'm well aware of the principle
[16:04] <kennethfeld> just liek this, until we are given some ground rules and theoritically a problem, we are all spitballing random stuff
[16:04] <querns> that is why i'm saying this
[16:05] <kennethfeld> but, i think we agree couriers to lowsec and npc null have the most risk and the most uncertainty
[16:06] <querns> yeah -- i'm not completely convinced that public couriers to those locations are a thing that are worth making a bunch of weird-ass rules about
[16:06] <querns> especially considering how few people that affects
[16:06] <kennethfeld> same for WH really - sorry WH guys
[16:07] <querns> eh i could see making couriers to WH citadels
[16:07] <querns> but there'd basically be no way to enforce any sort of safety whatsoever in that regard
[16:07] <cpt_patrick_archer> How many people use public couriers anyway?
[16:07] <querns> in highsec, tons
[16:07] <kennethfeld> I think it is a feture that should be added for sure - but do i see any WH guys making public couriers - hell no - except scam contracts obviously
[16:08] <querns> i do all my highsec couriers as public
[16:08] <querns> personally
[16:08] <kennethfeld> cpt_patrick_archer: go to contracta nd search high sec couriers - metric asstons of them
[16:08] <querns> generally though you need to stick to coming or going from a highsec trade hub to get them done in a reasonable time period
[16:08] <querns> which is fine for me
[16:09] <querns> if i need to go from Random Shithole A to Random Shithole 2 then i'd be more apt to use a private to a big hauling service
[16:09] <querns> because, presumably, they have a big list of contracts populated by the API, which lets them know that it at least exists
[16:09] <kennethfeld> but having a gank squad sitting on a citade or docked and seeing the freighter go into warp - remove docking and then suicide ganking on landing will be a things, much like gank contracts are now
[16:14] <dune.barphsaq> yeah that's the sort of thing I think we'd like to avoid. ganking on gate - fine. ganking with docking right fuckery is shitty imo
[16:14] <cpt_patrick_archer> I agree this is a problem. I think the only solution to this is to either add a "docking key" or remove public contracts to citadels. And I'm very much against the docking key.
[16:15] <dune.barphsaq> what would keep it from happening with private contracts?
[16:18] <nasantha> also, how would you manage the passing of a contract package to another character (say in a NPC corp to avoid wardecs) without some kind of key?
[16:23] <cpt_patrick_archer> @dune.barphsaq: the same thing that makes sure it doesn't happen in sov nullsec for the last 10 years. Trust between the 2 parties.
[16:24] <cpt_patrick_archer> What if you couldn't make a public contract if the acl isn't set to public. And you can't remove the public access until either the contract is finished or failed. That goes for any public couriers to that citadel.
[16:25] <kennethfeld> nasantha: are you talking private or public?
[16:26] <kennethfeld> cpt_patrick_archer: that was kind of my thinking on the check box deal - something along those lines
[16:26] <kennethfeld> make a giant checkbox for a citadel and if you check the box - the citadel is public until unanchored or destroyed, can't undo that setting
[16:27] <kennethfeld> That was also my solution for market hub type places as well and would make it easier for them to be included on crest etc, if they were deicated public
[16:32] <lynfel> Some kind of timer before standings changes affect docking rights would work. That way if you can dock when you accept the contract, if they suddenly change standings there is say a 24 hour delay before new standings affect docking rights. The timer for the change would have to be visible somehow on the Citadel information sheet though so you know when accepting if the change timer has already begun.
[16:33] <kennethfeld> lynfel: that is still the same as a key, you could bring in as much stuff as you wanted during that 24 hour window.
[16:33] <lynfel> Pilots from courier companies aren't generally the same as the character who accepted the contract. So the key would have to be transferrable.
[16:33] <kennethfeld> I think the biggeest thing here is do we want to onus on the citadel owner on whether or not to allow couriers or on the courier provider who has a limited set of tools to determine the viability of completing the contract
[16:34] <kennethfeld> lynfel: those are private contracts and are much much more easily solved
[16:34] <kennethfeld> the courier company provides an ACL to any entity who wished to do business with thema nd that ACL is installed in the citadel profile
[16:34] <kennethfeld> ez pz
[16:36] <lynfel> Well, a timer would solve the problem for public contracts as well. Its not limited to private contracts.
[16:37] <kennethfeld> tiemr has the same problem as a key though
[16:38] <querns> i mean, the solution might be that, in order to accept public couriers to your citadel, you have to accept a modicum of risk of undesirables entering
[16:38] <querns> like just full stop that is a thing that can happen
[16:39] <querns> don't like it, don't allow couriers
[16:39] <querns> tbh the "threat" is not that great -- assuming your ACLs are tight, they can't do things like transfer it or man the guns
[16:39] <querns> they can just dock and, uh, see the guest list?
[16:39] <querns> use the market and reprocessing and cloning i guess
[16:40] <kennethfeld> dock/tether/repair and refit their ship are all on one acl - that is the docking section of the profile
[16:40] <kennethfeld> market, reprocessing, cloning and defense all have separate sections in the profile
[16:41] <cpt_patrick_archer> so, is ccp going to say "this is possible and this aint"?
[16:41] <cpt_patrick_archer> cause i think this is best solution:
[16:41] <cpt_patrick_archer> "6:24]
[16:41] <cpt_patrick_archer> What if you couldn't make a public contract if the acl isn't set to public. And you can't remove the public access until either the contract is finished or failed. That goes for any public couriers to that citadel."
[16:42] <kennethfeld> but then couriers have to not only interface with corp profiles and ACL's, but also have to have a way to lock a profile, and what if you had several citadels with the same profile, but one citadel has a open public courier, can you not change the profile either? even for the other citadels?
[16:44] <lynfel> By the way, sometimes two pilots do need to dock to complete the contract. Since contracts are not always carried by the character that first accepts the contract, if it is traded to a freighter pilot and delivered and there is a container in the contract, due to the current limitation of not being able to contract a courier with a container inside, it must be manually traded back to the accepting character in order to be completed.
[16:44] <cpt_patrick_archer> @kennethfeld: stop making this more difficult :stuck_out_tongue:
[16:45] <querns> yeah, trying to make a convoluted access control thing is way more work than this needs
[16:45] <kennethfeld> OK, i manage every PL citadel, it does get this difficult, especially when you get upwards of 10 or so, remember, this has to be framework for all the other structures as well
[16:45] <querns> this needs no-fault returns with simple situations
[16:45] <querns> if you're going to not-highsec with them, you accept the risks
[16:45] <querns> done
[16:46] <querns> or maybe minimal faults like X% of the collateral as a fee to NPCs or some shit
[16:47] <dune.barphsaq> How will it work if your access to the destination and the origin both are lost?
[16:47] <querns> i would say use the asset safety formula to determine an NPC station as a destination of last resort
[16:48] <querns> the formula that picks where your stuff goes, that is
[16:48] <querns> maybe the defaulting fee is slightly higher for the last resort station?
[16:49] <cpt_patrick_archer> maybe make a "it's dead jim" where you can right click the contract and move it into asset safety of the owner. and it follows the normal formula.
[16:49] <cpt_patrick_archer> that doesnt stop the standings reset and kill on citadel though
[16:49] <querns> hrm i haven't really done any highsec citadel stuff -- is it possible to glass randoms on a highsec citadel, or can you not engage someone without suspect/criminal/wardec?
[16:51] <kennethfeld> querns: citadel safety permenetly green, so you need a reason to shoot something
[16:51] <querns> that is what i thought
[16:51] <kennethfeld> also, citadel is a corp asset, gunner criminal timers are irrelevant
[16:52] <kennethfeld> same for kill rights etc
[16:52] <lynfel> Black Frog already does contracts to/from SOV outposts and we set standings to be able to do so. I am not too worried about us being able to service citadels in low/nullsec. If there was a mechanic that allowed us to do so without having to spend hours negotiating standings so we didn't have to worry about having docking rights stripped en route without having to negotiate with each and every citadel owner individually it would make things easier for sure. But, as far as being able to move couriers to/from the hundreds or maybe even thousands of citadels that will be in hisec I don't see it happening without a system added to at least ensure docking rights remain open for a time.
[16:54] <kennethfeld> lynfel: I think that is an acl issue personally - if you link your BF acl in your bio and someone takes it and gives you docking rights, you should be able to see a list of what citadels that acl is being used at. Right now, even the acl owner can't see where that acl is being used
[16:54] <querns> yeah -- the problem is that most big courier services operate with NPC corp haulers to dodge wardecs, and that puts a wrinkle in any temp docking standings thing
[16:54] <kennethfeld> having an entity use your acl means that they don't see who is on your acl and you can't tell where that acl is being used
[16:55] <kennethfeld> no, put the neut haulers in the acl, they knwo who their neut haulers are
[16:55] <querns> from an implementation side, that is
[16:55] <kennethfeld> the big problem is that is a GIGANTIC security risk and i will never ever in a zillion years accept a 3rd party acl
[16:55] <querns> it'd be a LOT more work to divorce neutral subcontractor haulers from the way the game is
[16:56] <querns> more expedient to find a solution that allows that behavior to continue
[16:57] <lynfel> How quickly can you change an ACL? Its still going to mean having to negotiate individually with hundreds of people and mean we would have to severely limit who we would be willing to trust. AKA Chribba Station also known as Jita 2.0 We also have freighter pilots in around 300 different corporations hauling our contracts, how does that work for each of them.
[16:57] <kennethfeld> lynfel: have you messed around with ACL's much
[16:57] <lynfel> No
[16:57] <kennethfeld> it is literally as easy as drag/drop into a ACL
[16:57] <kennethfeld> no negotiation
[16:57] <kennethfeld> jesus fuck, this is easy as shit for you
[16:58] <kennethfeld> you should be dancing int he streets
[16:58] <querns> no -- they have to wrangle hundreds of disparate alts
[16:58] <lynfel> Half of our freighters are in NPC corps
[16:58] <lynfel> so that's a lot of dragging and dropping
[16:58] <querns> it's an order of magnitude less work, but it's still a lot of work
[16:58] <kennethfeld> lynfel: you only have to do it once
[16:58] <querns> you have to do it any time a new hauler joins the organization
[16:58] <querns> you have to add their alts to the thing
[16:58] <nasantha> or when they get removed
[16:58] <querns> and when they leave the organization
[16:59] <querns> efb
[16:59] <kennethfeld> I meant the big 300 pilot drag/drop
[16:59] <lynfel> so, in Red Frog's case say 25-50 new pilots a month
[16:59] <nasantha> or when they get a new hauler
[16:59] <querns> it represents a massive knot of work that never truly goes away
[16:59] <lynfel> for every customer
[16:59] <kennethfeld> lynfel: no
[16:59] <kennethfeld> wait
[16:59] <kennethfeld> OK
[16:59] <querns> even if you only have to do it in one place
[16:59] <kennethfeld> you make an acl and give it to chribba 2.0 and it is set for docking
[16:59] <querns> kennethfeld: your point is that the work, once done, applies to every citadel using the RF ACL
[16:59] <querns> but
[16:59] <querns> maintaining just the one ACL, once?
[16:59] <querns> is still a LOT of work
[16:59] <kennethfeld> when you make changes it AUTOMAGICALLY UPDATES all throughout new eden
[17:00] <querns> because it represents a continual task of updating subcontractor alts
[17:00] <querns> we get that that work isn't multiplied by the number of citadels in new eden
[17:00] <querns> but the single unit of work you're reducing it to
[17:00] <querns> is still large
[17:00] <kennethfeld> querns: I don't mind that as he is running a business and that takes work...sorry
[17:00] <querns> lol
[17:01] <lynfel> And still requires us to negotiate standings with every citadel owner that wants us to dock. I guarantee you that it will severely limit where we are willing to go and mean less trade hubs not more.
[17:01] <querns> they just won't do it, then, it won't be worth the administrative effort
[17:01] <kennethfeld> no standings
[17:01] <kennethfeld> you can dock as a red
[17:01] <querns> he means get them to use the RF ACL
[17:01] <lynfel> we have to get them to include our ACL
[17:01] <querns> not the physical game mechanic of standings
[17:01] <kennethfeld> ok, but that has NOTHING to do with standings
[17:01] <lynfel> which they can revoke in a heartbeat
[17:01] <querns> yes
[17:01] <querns> he didn't mean physical standings
[17:02] <kennethfeld> they can revoke standings as well
[17:02] <querns> he meant negotiating rights to dock
[17:02] <querns> please read what i am saying
[17:02] <lynfel> so we'll end up with like 5 citadels Red Frog will service.
[17:02] <cpt_patrick_archer> @here: so how about, we automatically create an access list called "public", same way a corp ACL is created.
[17:02] <cpt_patrick_archer> then if you want to use public contracts you need to have that one applied to ur citadel.
[17:02] <cpt_patrick_archer> and you cannot remove it until contract is finished / failed. [cc: focusgrouplogbot]
[17:02] <kennethfeld> lynfel: OK, now, if you want to dock in cfc space - assumign they had sov - you have to negotiate right?
[17:02] <querns> sov null is different
[17:02] <kennethfeld> ok, cfc in lowsec - same thing
[17:03] <querns> cfcdot mostly lives in nullsec though these days
[17:03] <kennethfeld> now, instead of having standings for your 300 man npc army of JF pilots, you can maintain it yourself and it populates all over instantly
[17:03] <ccp_fozzie> @cpt_patrick_archer: having open contracts lock the ACL would be a giant bag of worms. For instance any player would be able to use contracts to an alt to prevent the ACL from ever changing
[17:03] <lynfel> Like I said, I am less worried limited service in SOV/Lowsec. It would be nice if we could do more, but it works now. I am talking about hisec atm
[17:04] <querns> yeah -- the experience is most fragile in highsec
[17:04] <kennethfeld> hisec is a friggin nightmare and needs to be deleted
[17:04] <querns> mlyp
[17:04] <kennethfeld> hisec is scary
[17:04] <querns> yeah trying to modify docking rights for a courier haver means that every docking request has to check contracts and/or the ship's cargo hold
[17:04] <querns> that is a lot of overhead
[17:05] <querns> that is why i like low/no fault returns as a safety blanket for highsec couriers
[17:05] <querns> it would suck if it happened
[17:05] <querns> to be sure
[17:05] <querns> a bunch of extra work and no reward
[17:05] <querns> but it wouldn't be full collateral loss
[17:05] <kennethfeld> ccp_fozzie: how abotu a small primer on where we are, what problems we might be trying to solve and maybe some parameters about what we know absiolutely won't work?
[17:06] <kennethfeld> or you just listening now and wiriting down stuff that is not LOL funny now?
[17:06] <ccp_fozzie> Yeah I'm gonna do that when I can. Unfortunately a bit busy with some other work at this moment (which also allows time for more people to join us)
[17:06] <kennethfeld> cool, about end of day for you guys anyway isn't it?
[17:07] <lynfel> Another option (for hisec only) would be allowing the freighter to pick up / deliver the contract while in tether range of the citadel without docking. But contracts would first need to be fixed so that you can recontract a courier with a container inside of it.
[17:07] <ccp_fozzie> 5pm here, but I'll be working late today
[17:07] <kennethfeld> :disappointed:
[17:07] <querns> seems de riguer for the man anyways, he posted the list of folks on this panel at like midnight his time :V
[17:09] <kennethfeld> I was busy fleeign his native land yesterday, I didn't pay much attention to times it was basically is my phone in airplane mode or not
[17:10] <ccp_fozzie> @lynfel: can you explain why recontracting a courier with a container is specifically a requirement for delivery from outside the citadel?
[17:11] <lynfel> because no one hauls courier contracts in a freighter in hisec with the in corp character who accepts the contract. If they did every courier company would constantly be wardecced and would not do any contracts. One character in corp accepts the contract and trades it to their freighter pilot.
[17:11] <lynfel> the freighter pilot needs to be able to deliver the contract then the accepting character has to complete it
[17:12] <kennethfeld> if it has a container, it can be recontracted as it is more than 2 layers deep
[17:12] <lynfel> when you make a courier to red frog with a container it it, its already 2 layers deep
[17:12] <kennethfeld> assembled container
[17:12] <kennethfeld> packaged container are like anythign else
[17:12] <lynfel> but there is no way to check for a container before accepting the contract
[17:12] <cpt_patrick_archer> which is a pain on so many levels. if this could ever be fixed that would be great. but it's not completely related to this discussion is it?
[17:13] <kennethfeld> kinda like if you try and put a mobile depot in a container
[17:13] <lynfel> it is if you want to be able to deliver without docking
[17:13] <lynfel> as a solution
[17:13] <ccp_fozzie> yes, but why not allow whoever has the plastic wrap to deliver it to the rightful owner instead?
[17:14] <kennethfeld> or make it so if the packe is in the right destination it can either be delivered by anyone and released from all contracts - or deliver remotely
[17:14] <lynfel> what about picking up from a citadel then?
[17:14] <kennethfeld> ccp_fozzie: it is essentially 2 contracts at that point, the original courier and a second fromt he recipient to their nuetral JF pilot
[17:15] <lynfel> Say I accept a contract from a Citadel with my contract alt. Then I try to recontract it to my freighter pilot but there is a container in the original contract. I can't without docking to manually trade it.
[17:15] <querns> yeah -- in the situation where the courier originates inside a structure, the in-corp contract accepting character then needs to hand his package off to a person who, ostensibly, cannot dock
[17:15] <querns> and potentially remotely
[17:16] <lynfel> There is no system in place that lets me check before accepting the contract if there is already a container inside of it
[17:16] <querns> if we had remote Deliver To functionality i'd almost say allow any character to access the deliveries hangar of a structure from outside the citadel
[17:16] <nasantha> I believe that was one thing mentioned at fanfest actually
[17:16] <nasantha> some kind of highlighting to show if contracts are 2 layers deep already or not
[17:16] <querns> and perhaps allow couriers going to that citadel to be written to the deliveries hangar
[17:17] <querns> this would normally be a way to evac stuff from a citadel without docking access, but asset safety already lets you do that, and more safely to boot
[17:17] <nasantha> What would happen if there was something like a planetary office outside gun and docking range of the citadel that acts as a post office for contacts to and from the citadel? If it is unable to be damaged except by killing the citadel then it would keep the items safe until they were collected. If the citadel got popped then NPC's would move the items from the "post office" to the nearest NPC station
[17:17] <querns> nasantha: that is sort of where i was going
[17:17] <querns> but with the existing deliveries hangar
[17:17] <kennethfeld> that was in the origiunal talk about citadels, some sort of npc hauling
[17:18] <querns> like, straight up, if you're outside the citadel you can access your personal deliveries hangar
[17:18] <querns> and additionally allow you to deposit plastic wraps to it
[17:18] <querns> this would require you to be in the docking ring of the citadel of course
[17:18] <querns> which wouldn't afford any safety if you weren't on the ACL
[17:19] <querns> also allows you to, e.g., put a cache of liquid ozone in deliveries and sip it for cynos from the outside
[17:19] <querns> which is kinda nice :slightly_smiling_face:
[17:20] <lynfel> Still need to be able to trade between two characters at that outside hangar, unless contracts are made so that you can recontract them with an assembled container inside.
[17:21] <nasantha> unless, because you had the contract you could complete it on behalf of the original individual remotely?
[17:22] <lynfel> picking it up is still an issue
[17:22] <nasantha> it would only work for deliveries though
[17:22] <lynfel> that only works for deliveries
[17:22] <nasantha> yeh
[17:22] <querns> well the idea was, with remote delivery
[17:22] <querns> that the contract accepting character would Deliver the plastic wrap to the hauler
[17:22] <querns> it would then appear in the hauler's deliveries hangar
[17:22] <querns> where they could pick it up from the outside
[17:23] <querns> no subcontracting required
[17:23] <querns> then the hauler takes it to the destination, and if the destination is a citadel
[17:23] <querns> they load it into their personal deliveries hangar from outside
[17:23] <querns> and maybe that even completes the contract automatically?
[17:23] <querns> remote delivery is definitely not a thing we have right now though
[17:23] <querns> so may not be feasible for this
[17:23] <cpt_patrick_archer> @nasantha: I like that idea of having a "post office". Honestly every system in NPC and ls/hs could have that thing.
[17:23] <cpt_patrick_archer> Every1 can dock
[17:24] <querns> yeah i have always wanted a "customs office" for POS
[17:24] <querns> to be a target for courier delivery
[17:24] <querns> in the past
[17:25] <lynfel> The post office thing is kind of a neat idea. But does require either trading at the post office or the ability to recontract contracts with a container inside within the post office.
[17:25] <nasantha> maybe the post office allows item exchanges internally
[17:26] <nasantha> could be called an automated sorting system or something
[17:26] <querns> unless i'm missing an angle, my vignette does away with the need to recontract
[17:27] <querns> Deliver To is a specific thing in citadels, where you can just straight up send arbitrary items to another character, even if they're offline
[17:27] <querns> it shows up in a special Deliveries Hangar inside the citadel
[17:27] <querns> no contract required
[17:27] <kennethfeld> This just comes down to risk - who do we want to have the risk - the citadel owner or the hauler?
[17:28] <nasantha> the hauler should only have the risk that is within their power to mitigate
[17:28] <kennethfeld> if the owner doesn't want the risk, he should be able to check and box to remove the citadel from the destination box for public couriers
[17:29] <kennethfeld> also, no one docked can make a public couier
[17:29] <querns> please no more configuration hell
[17:29] <kennethfeld> make it part of the profile
[17:30] <kennethfeld> then the hauling companies can negotiate with the non public entities for their services if they want
[17:31] <nasantha> to be fair, if contracts are handled externally to the citadel and docking rights are not needed then the individuals inside the citadel should be on the allowed list. Given this, it should be quite easy to make sure those with access don't make public contracts. Even so, it would not bring people or stuff that is not in a contract into the citadel
[17:32] <nasantha> no configuration needed, no lengthy negociations
[17:32] <querns> yep
[17:32] <querns> in that situation it Just Works
[17:32] <querns> it's not perfect of course -- there's risk involved, especially in lower-security space
[17:33] <lynfel> except for hundreds of scam contracts
[17:33] <kennethfeld> so, you would jump a JF in to deliver with no tethering while being able to be targeted or scrammed and killed
[17:33] <lynfel> I am mostly talking about hisec contracts today
[17:34] <querns> yeah, i am not concerned with not-highsec right now
[17:34] <lynfel> I realize in low/nullsec negotiations are required individually
[17:34] <kennethfeld> well, this solution has to wkr in a spaces
[17:35] <kennethfeld> even so, if I know a freighter is going to be sitting at a spot in space to deliver a package - I am salivating
[17:35] <kennethfeld> shotign fish in a barrel
[17:36] <kennethfeld> sir 5km off the post office box cloaked, approach - uncloak and bam - dead freighter
[17:36] <cpt_patrick_archer> I think the easiest solution would be:
[17:36] <cpt_patrick_archer> Add a post office to all NPC and Empire systems. Couriers get delivered there and beamed to the citadel in the system.
[17:36] <cpt_patrick_archer> Sov Null shouldn't have those structures (maybe have the option to build them and blow them up?) But no1 uses public contracts in Sov anyways. Same goes for W-Space.
[17:36] <cpt_patrick_archer> The post office can be a astrahaus model or something. Potentially with docking rights, but that might mess things up a little.
[17:37] <lynfel> NPC Sov does
[17:37] <lynfel> but that may go
[17:37] <lynfel> I spose
[17:37] <cpt_patrick_archer> Yea, maybe you need to apply the "docking key" idea to the post offices.
[17:37] <nasantha> that could be workable
[17:37] <cpt_patrick_archer> Prevents you from getting ganked. And makes sure you dont add freeports to every system ine ve
[17:38] <kennethfeld> you could just do that with stations. no need to clutter space
[17:38] <cpt_patrick_archer> but what if there is no station in system?
[17:38] <kennethfeld> then deliver next door and it takes the npc convoy 2 extra days to get it to your citadel
[17:38] <cpt_patrick_archer> im looking at for instance Great Wildlands
[17:38] <cpt_patrick_archer> im not a fan
[17:38] <kennethfeld> 2 days per gate to get it to you
[17:38] <cpt_patrick_archer> but not entirely against it
[17:39] <cpt_patrick_archer> that would mean it takes 30 days for remote GW systems
[17:39] <cpt_patrick_archer> or northern venal
[17:39] <kennethfeld> or give the courier contract haulign company docking rights and negotiate with them
[17:39] <kennethfeld> lowsec and nullsec will be public vs hauling company negotiation
[17:40] <kennethfeld> no one is going to accept a public courier to noerthern venal on purpose
[17:41] <lynfel> All the keys, negotiating ACL's+Standings for tons of alts, post offices, etc. seems like a lot more work for CCP to implement and for us to use than just having a visible 24 hour timer for changing between public and private docking rights.
[17:41] <querns> yeah -- i don't think that pushing for a complicated solution to cover weird low/null edge cases is worth the time
[17:42] <kennethfeld> lynfel: you have one acl and you negotiate for a single aclnot tons of alts
[17:43] <cassie_helio> I have an idea with the keys.
[17:43] <cassie_helio> The issues are allowing a pilot that did not accept the package to dock as a lot of haulers transfer the package to a different pilot. Also, the problem of revoking docking privileges after the package is delivered.
[17:43] <cassie_helio> My idea is a key that comes with the package that has the same time duration as the courier contract. The citadels get a new property called "Courier Keys" or something of the sort that a citadel owner could allow keys to be made with courier packages. The key would allow access rights for the same length as the courier contract time. For example, a 7 Day courier contract, the pilot has 7 days to use the key to get in and out of the citadel with access rights.
[17:43] <cassie_helio> Below I'll illustrate an example of this.
[17:43] <cassie_helio> Citadel X has its settings for "Courier Keys" to be generated when a courier package is made. When a courier is made with to that citadel a key comes with the package. Pilot "A" accepts the contract and gives the package and key to pilot "B". Pilot B then can activate that key to have access rights for the length of the courier package. Pilot B then has that amount of time to use the citadel.
[17:43] <cassie_helio> Expanding on this idea, keys could also be a more generic use of citadel and not necessarily tied to courier package but citadel owners could hand out keys for general access rights for limited amounts of time.
[17:43] <lynfel> If you had a 24 hour timer in hisec and 72 hour timer in lowsec/nullsec it would be more ideal tbh.
[17:43] <kennethfeld> then you can stage your whole alliance in someone else's citadel by passing around the keys
[17:45] <cassie_helio> The key could also come with a "Number of uses" property so the key can only be used by x amount of pilots.
[17:45] <lynfel> and it would need to be two keys per contract since two characters need to dock at the same time in the case of courier contracts with nested containers.
[17:45] <cassie_helio> Yeah
[17:45] <lynfel> Since that is still a problem.
[17:45] <cassie_helio> No that could be the solution to the problem
[17:45] <lynfel> and still more work to setup and maintain
[17:47] <cassie_helio> The citadel owner can set how many uses the key gets. So if there is a nested container the key can have 2 uses. The acceptor and the deliverer can both use it. Once the quota is met, the key can't be activated by anymore pilots
[17:47] <cassie_helio> So, I as a JF pilot, would not accept a courier package to a citadel with a key that has less than two uses in case there is a container in the package.
[17:48] <cassie_helio> So they keys have a guaranteed access duration and number of uses to keep it from being abused.
[17:49] <nasantha> Most of the time you would only need one use though, thus still allowing 1 extra undesirable in while still letting you deliver the contract
[17:50] <kennethfeld> what about citadel to citadel? you would need keys for both ends of the courier
[17:51] <enorn> Should couriers to/from private Citadels be public?
[17:51] <cassie_helio> Yeah. I think that would be ok though.
[17:51] <cassie_helio> A hauler doesn't have to accept a contract if the contract does not have the proper keys.
[17:51] <cassie_helio> Same now as a hauler doesn't have to accept a contract to lowsec or nullsec if it doesnt fit into a JF.
[17:52] <enorn> It's not so bad with outposts, but citadels and future structures are supposed to be ubiquitous, a warning is needed at the very least.
[17:53] <kennethfeld> enorn: that is part of the problem it will exist in highsec, lowsec, nullsec and WH space - so in order not to be warning to death, we need an engineered way out
[17:54] <lynfel> Since people are trying to shift markets to citadels to avoid taxes, you're going to end up with a very limited number of citadels being trade hubs like Jita since they have to be owned by a group or person trusted by the majority of the player base to be used as such.
[17:55] <cassie_helio> The keys idea is like hotel keys. You get a certain amount for a limited time.
[17:56] <lynfel> without a mechanic in place to allow public couriers to be done with at least a modicum of security knowing that you will be able to complete the contract its going to be very limited.
[17:56] <nasantha> I can imagine someone using said holtel key until it has nearly run out and then placing it back on the public contracts system as a nice little scam
[17:56] <cassie_helio> No, once it's used it's binded to that pilot
[17:57] <cassie_helio> That's the "Number of uses" part
[17:57] <nasantha> so how does that help with container contracts?
[17:57] <enorn> Why wouldn't it be tied to the package?
[17:57] <lynfel> I still say a timer for docking rights changes is a whole lot easier to implement than making keys, changing contracts to show said keys, etc. If you don't want randoms to dock in your citadel (Kenneth) never set it public.
[17:58] <cassie_helio> "
[17:58] <cassie_helio> nasantha [12:57 PM]
[17:58] <cassie_helio> so how does that help with container contracts?"
[17:58] <cassie_helio> That's why you could set 2 uses so the contractor and the deliverer could use it and dock.
[17:58] <lynfel> they both need to dock at once
[17:58] <lynfel> 2 keys
[17:58] <kennethfeld> lynfel: Yeah, I know how i am going to regulate couriers in PL citadels, that is easy, but that isn't the problem we are trying to solve here LOL
[17:59] <querns> man this is really complicated
[17:59] <lynfel> or they could just fix contracts so that they can be recontracted even with a nested container.
[17:59] <enorn> Before I go catch up, have you discussed delivering packages while tethered? I have a feeling the technology isn't there even if it'd be a good idea.
[17:59] <querns> we did, briefly
[17:59] <kennethfeld> but locking any settings in the citadel, fozzie already said no
[17:59] <querns> my opinion is that you should be able to access your personal Deliveries hangar from the outside
[17:59] <kennethfeld> enorn: yeah, but stil requires docking for acceptor or remote delivery
[18:00] <kennethfeld> querns: they said that would be OP for tethered ships to big to dock
[18:00] <enorn> You'd have a context menu option, "Deliver package to tethering citadel" while tethered that'd deliver it
[18:00] <querns> maybe only plastic wraps?
[18:00] <querns> the idea being you could also drop plastic wraps into the deliveries hangar from the outside
[18:01] <querns> and have that complete the courier
[18:01] <kennethfeld> enorm we are talking double wraps here, that only deliveres it once
[18:01] <querns> would do away with recontracting completely
[18:02] <cassie_helio> recontracting is is necessary for security.
[18:02] <kennethfeld> what about double couriers due to standings? i use that for my jita guys to carry to lowsec and rapakcage and recourier to nullsec JF guys to take so they don't get shot
[18:02] <cassie_helio> Hauling corps would be war dec'd all the time if they couldnt recontract
[18:02] <kennethfeld> I would want ti delivered in one shot
[18:02] <querns> no, i mean, it would do away with the need for recontracting
[18:03] <querns> if an arbitrary character can just slot the plastic wrap into their deliveries hangar from the outside
[18:03] <querns> and have it complete, no matter who the contract was for
[18:03] <lynfel> public and courier company contracts have large collateral Kenneth. No repackaging.
[18:03] <querns> then you just remote deliver the contract to the hauler alt and they pick it up from outside
[18:03] <lynfel> What about picking up from citadels querns
[18:03] <enorn> How much work do they want to do on contracts, and is there enough time?
[18:03] <lynfel> That only works for deliveries.
[18:04] <querns> okay so here is the flow
[18:04] <querns> character A is the in-corp RF pilot that accepts contracts
[18:04] <querns> character 2 is the neutral hauler
[18:04] <querns> character A accepts the contract, then uses Remote Delivery (a feature that doesn't exist yet) to send it to character 2
[18:05] <querns> character 2 flies to the citadel, opens the delivery hangar from outside, and picks up the plastic wrap
[18:05] <querns> character 2 flies to destination and slots it into their personal deliveries hangar from outside
[18:05] <querns> the contract then automatically completes for character A
[18:07] <lynfel> I like the idea of remote delivery. If just to trade my ships between my non courier alts without having to make a contract every time. Seems like that would work in hisec.
[18:07] <querns> yep
[18:07] <querns> Deliver To is a feature of citadels that you can do inside only
[18:07] <kennethfeld> what if you need pilot 3 for use when you have null and then high sec wardec
[18:07] <kennethfeld> corp b delivers to lowsec
[18:08] <querns> the package is just a package, you can use an infinite number of people to handle it
[18:08] <kennethfeld> corp c picks up and delivers to null
[18:08] <lynfel> ya, you just remote deliver it again
[18:08] <lynfel> and again
[18:08] <lynfel> and again
[18:08] <kennethfeld> how do you pick it up
[18:08] <nasantha> someone gives you it
[18:08] <lynfel> accept contract with alt, remote deliver it to the JF pilot
[18:08] <lynfel> he picks up and moves to lowsec and remote delivers to next JF pilot
[18:09] <lynfel> he moves to hisec and delivers to citadel
[18:09] <kennethfeld> ok, so what you are talking about is high sec only then, cause I won't be doing that in low or null
[18:09] <lynfel> yes
[18:10] <lynfel> For security reasons I believe diplomacy will be a thing in low/null just like it is for SOV outposts now. In hisec its just not as feasible.
[18:10] <lynfel> not if you want to spread markets and not have massive trade hubs like Jita
[18:18] <querns> i get that this vignette is very, very weak outside of highsec
[18:18] <querns> i am not looking for a one-size-fits-all solution here
[18:18] <querns> i am trying to make highsec couriers as easy as possible to do and develop
[18:19] <querns> the faster we get a minimal-acceptance case, the faster we get item exchange and private couriers to citadels on tq
[18:19] <querns> i am not particularly motivated to hash out some overcomplicated docking thing that might work in nullsec if the parties involved are both mensa members but only if they are standing on one foot and the moon is full
[18:22] <nasantha> LOL, I agree that anything that gets thought about needs to keep everything as simple as possible
[18:23] <kennethfeld> honestly, i wouldn't mind turning off public couriers to low/null/wh
[18:24] <kennethfeld> citadels that is, leave NPC null stations
[18:28] <lynfel> For hisec I think a public/private setting with at least a visible 24 hour change timer is the easiest thing to implement and easiest to use and allows for more people to try and set up mini trade hubs all over instead of limiting it to a select few trustworthy individuals. To be honest longer than 24 hours might be better since traders may require time to get their assets out of a citadel should a docking rights change be started.
[18:28] <kennethfeld> high sec and get assets out, you do realize they can triagger asset safety anytime
[18:29] <kennethfeld> they have to wait 5 days, sure, butthey all go to station
[18:29] <lynfel> and that the cost in a station less system would be exorbitant, yes.
[18:29] <kennethfeld> ZERO COST
[18:29] <kennethfeld> none
[18:29] <kennethfeld> zip nada
[18:29] <kennethfeld> zilch
[18:29] <lynfel> when there is no other station or citadel in the same station there is
[18:29] <lynfel> same system*
[18:30] <kennethfeld> oh, station less - yeah - LOL, like somone is going to put a tarde hub there...they deserve to get screwed
[18:30] <kennethfeld> hehe, tarde was a typo, but so fitting
[18:30] <lynfel> Quite a few hisec systems don't have stations and already have Citadel markets
[18:31] <kennethfeld> OK
[18:31] <kennethfeld> we can't engineer out stupidity
[18:31] <kennethfeld> that is a risk/reward scenario
[21:54] <cpt_patrick_archer> I'm back, had some drinks.
[21:54] <cpt_patrick_archer> Did we agree on something yet?
[21:54] <cpt_patrick_archer> :slightly_smiling_face:
[22:20] <querns> testing irc gateway
[22:20] <querns> k good