[02:36] <jintaan> @cptpatrickarcher: I mean I expected a lot more contention
[02:37] <jintaan> There's been a fair bit of contention but entirely on solutions
[02:37] <jintaan> The issues seem to be almost cut and dry
[02:37] <jintaan> But yeah I'll probably make a doc of my notes tommorow and throw it up for comment
[07:58] <cptpatrickarcher> Isn't that a good thing? Should make finding solutions a lot easier when the issues are clear :slightly_smiling_face:
[07:58] <cptpatrickarcher> Also, you should go to bed earlier than you did last night :slightly_smiling_face:
[08:43] <jintaan> is not going to lie his work makes 0 sense to tiredbtain right now
[08:44] <jintaan> But, the solutions are more tricky
[08:48] <jintaan> I'm going to probably just throw up a doc with my key points so far and see if people agree/disagree and if we need to add more points
[08:49] <jintaan> Ideally we get like 4-6 things 90+% agree suck, I take it to CCP and have an good old college try at making them understand why they need to change it somehow.
[11:44] <steveronuken> chuckles. 'make finding solutions a lot easier when the issues are clear'. Just look at ECM. no-one's come up with something decent as a replacement yet. It's where game designer's hopes and dreams die.
[11:47] <gobbins> So as far as aegis sov and citadels are concerned, is everyone in agreement that they "suck" atm?
[11:49] <jintaan> Citadels are pretty ok
[11:49] <jintaan> Hmm
[11:49] <nour_samy> Only two problems that I see personally with citadels is the crazy amount of tim to ref and kill one, and void bombs OP
[11:49] <jintaan> Citadel discussion time; go
[11:50] <nour_samy> but aaegis sov does suck
[11:50] <jintaan> But I got the feeling that the consensus was that Entosis mechanics are the issue
[11:50] <jintaan> And there are too many nodes
[11:50] <jintaan> That's about it
[11:50] <gobbins> my impression is the main beef on citadel atm is Astrahauses:
[11:50] <gobbins> - void bomb too op
[11:50] <gobbins> - vuln timer too short
[11:50] <gobbins> - too much effort to kill (triple rf timer) for its cost
[11:51] <gobbins> I havent seen anyone complain about fortizars or keepstars, and for their cost they seem to be balanced
[11:51] <nour_samy> Well void bombs in general on citadels
[11:51] <nour_samy> I think the bomb launcher might use a rebalance at some point
[11:52] <nour_samy> but the other two points are correct
[11:52] <gobbins> I mean for a fortizar the void is balanced comon
[11:53] <gobbins> otherwise give the fortizar something like a really high alpha weapon so 5 logi cant permatank it
[11:53] <nour_samy> Only viable doctrine to siege a citadel throwing void bombs that i can think off is passive tanked macharials and a fuck ton of guardians
[11:54] <steveronuken> (I still wish you could have defender missiles targetting bombs and the like, aimed at the fleet)
[11:54] <nour_samy> Mhm
[11:54] <nour_samy> If something like that existed I'd say okay, citadel bombs are passable
[11:54] <nour_samy> but it doesn't
[11:56] <gobbins> look you must allow citadels to have a strong defense
[11:56] <gobbins> do you know how much dps a fortizar deals with missiles alone?
[11:56] <gobbins> but astras are op
[11:58] <nour_samy> Citadels do have their own defences
[11:58] <nour_samy> Thy're a great multiplier against capitals
[11:58] <nour_samy> IF you want to defend it from subcaps you should show up to actually defend it.
[12:31] <gobbins> yes and have an advantage
[12:33] <nour_samy> You already do though.
[12:33] <nour_samy> If hostiles drop caps, you can take them out without dropping yours.
[12:44] <raknor> citadels are dumb
[12:45] <raknor> because i can never take the citadel from a even sized group
[12:50] <nour_samy> I honestly think it's kind of dumb that a citadel any size is equivilant to a dread or 3, + a carrier or super, + a bomber fleet
[12:50] <nour_samy> I mean, dread/carrier/super is only to balance out against hostile caps, which is ~fair~ i guess, gives smaller groups a chance
[12:50] <nour_samy> but the bombs are jsut retarded
[12:52] <ironwulf> Well no because a lot of people complained for years pos where under powered for today's eve. So that's probably the idea behind citadels
[12:55] <gobbins> thats not at all what a citadel is equivalent to samy
[12:56] <nour_samy> My corp's astrauhas, missiles alone, 10k dps against caps + a capital neut and targt painter
[12:56] <nour_samy> not including fighters/bomb launcher
[12:56] <gobbins> anyways as far as astrahuses go, does anyone here disagree with the statement that
[12:56] <gobbins> 1. void bombs too stronk on astras
[12:56] <gobbins> 2. vuln timer is too short?
[12:56] <ironwulf> I would go with 1
[12:57] <nour_samy> I agree with both
[12:57] <nour_samy> But i'd like to come back to the bomb launchrs in general if possible
[13:39] <cptpatrickarcher> void bombs as a whole are to OP. im not against the mod, but it has absolutely no counter atm. you can boosh it, you can smartbomb it, you can incap the launcher, you can neut the citadel etc etc.
[13:39] <cptpatrickarcher> the vul on the astrahus is waaaaaay to short, it should be the most vulnerable one, since everyone keeps dropping them everywhere. cleaning a region afterwards is dumb because everyone times them for 1100 or something.
[13:39] <cptpatrickarcher> and yes we can agree that fozziesov is dumb AF
[15:04] <caprisunkraftfoods> the void bombs with current stats are OP
[15:05] <caprisunkraftfoods> me and gobbins spent a lot of time trying to EFT some kind of doctrine that wouldn't just get capped out and be unable to use its guns
[15:06] <caprisunkraftfoods> Sacrileges and HAM Legions are the only ships that have the combination of cap less guns, respectable passive tank and enough EHP to operate in the current meta
[15:07] <nour_samy> and machs
[15:07] <caprisunkraftfoods> even linked Confessors which are bassically the ultimate example of a sig tanking armor ship will run out cap boosters in about 15 mins
[15:08] <caprisunkraftfoods> well problem with machs is passively tanked they have a lot less EHP without spending an extra ~100-150m on blinging the tank
[15:08] <caprisunkraftfoods> plus they still cap out
[15:08] <caprisunkraftfoods> and even though the machs will be fine, you can still cap out the guardians ez
[15:09] <nour_samy> Yup
[15:09] <nour_samy> Depends on how you fit the mach though
[15:09] <nour_samy> I have a 190-200k ehp all passive mach
[15:09] <nour_samy> no bling
[15:10] <caprisunkraftfoods> in terms of bling I meant using Imp Navy Plates and c-type passives
[15:11] <caprisunkraftfoods> but tbf I think like half the groups that run machs use those plates anyway
[15:11] <caprisunkraftfoods> idk about you guys in angel space tho
[15:12] <nour_samy> Eh, navy faction tank, extenders/plates at least is low cost enough to justify use
[15:12] <nour_samy> on our tengus we use all navy extenders
[15:12] <caprisunkraftfoods> I know off the top of my head the TISHU mach fit is ~260k EHP with damnation links
[15:13] <caprisunkraftfoods> thats imp navy plates, imp navy eanm, t2 hardeners, t1 rigs
[15:13] <nour_samy> Huh, 1200mm guns ?
[15:13] <caprisunkraftfoods> nah meta guns
[15:13] <nour_samy> Ah, I see.
[15:13] <caprisunkraftfoods> yeah NC use the 1200mm guns, we make fun of them all the time for it
[15:14] <nour_samy> They're teerrible
[15:14] <nour_samy> but meta loses a good chunk of alpha though
[15:14] <caprisunkraftfoods> the snuff fit with their standard HG slave set loadout is 445k EHP I think
[15:14] <caprisunkraftfoods> thats a-type passives and a-type anp
[15:14] <nour_samy> lel ouch :stuck_out_tongue:
[15:14] <nour_samy> Yah i'm looking at a mach now, T2 guns, smartbomb, 208k ehp, all passive
[15:15] <nour_samy> 500mil per hull
[15:15] <caprisunkraftfoods> actually no just opened pyfa, its 489k ehp
[15:15] <caprisunkraftfoods> that fit is 1.1B at current jita price
[15:15] <nour_samy> mwd too
[15:15] <nour_samy> Damn, yah too shiny for nullsec
[15:16] <caprisunkraftfoods> if you t1 the rigs and b-type the passives you save about 300m
[15:16] <nour_samy> It's really the implants that make such a huge impact on the ehp
[15:16] <nour_samy> Gets to a point where bling has little over all effect to justify cost
[15:16] <caprisunkraftfoods> swap the slaves the implants to like a 650m mid-grade loadout and you're still about 400k EHP for less than half the cost
[15:17] <caprisunkraftfoods> like 50% of TISHU just runs mid-grade slaves any time we undock machs or prots because they're so cheap and its easy to switch clones with citadels now
[15:17] <caprisunkraftfoods> even in null
[15:17] <nour_samy> Yep, true
[15:17] <nour_samy> It's an optinal thing though, for those that want to go a littl further
[15:17] <nour_samy> If it were ever mandatory i'd do it on logi
[15:19] <nour_samy> but yah, citadels pretty much shut down any shield tanking doctrines
[15:19] <nour_samy> and anything rail/laser
[15:20] <steveronuken> I suspect if that fit was in use, in null, the price would go up :wink:
[15:20] <nour_samy> Lol :stuck_out_tongue: yep
[15:21] <nour_samy> Doesn't matter how much you tank if you kill the logi
[15:22] <gobbins> void bomb is op but the rest of the citadel is hot grabo
[15:22] <gobbins> replace void bomb with aoe ECM imo
[15:22] <nour_samy> urgh please no more ecm spewing shit
[15:22] <gobbins> useless by itself but strong force multiplier
[15:22] <gobbins> ok then what do you want the fortizars to do samy?
[15:22] <gobbins> apart from tethering and getting fragged
[15:23] <nour_samy> They do plenty without bombs
[15:23] <gobbins> no man, they dont
[15:23] <gobbins> they deal good dps vs caps - but that's it
[15:23] <nour_samy> All you should need imo
[15:23] <gobbins> and given that 40 cerbs will easily max cap on a fortizar, that is mostly irrelevant
[15:23] <gobbins> ok then I very strongly disagree, considering its a 15 b structure that cannot be moved and holds people's assets
[15:24] <gobbins> it should be dangerous for subcaps
[15:24] <gobbins> if not directly killing them, then a very strong force multiplier, like aoe ecm
[15:25] <nour_samy> Then it would work like lock breakers, not a 10 sec jam cycle
[15:28] <caprisunkraftfoods> @steveronuken: it's still a total mystery to me how Machs have stayed 400m-ish despite almost everyone in the game using and losing them for the last 6 months
[15:29] <nour_samy> I have 12 mach bpcs and i barely rat/run 10/10s
[15:29] <nour_samy> Their drop rate is insan
[15:29] <nour_samy> insane*
[15:29] <nour_samy> which is good :stuck_out_tongue: keep it that way
[15:29] <gorskicar> just imagine chaining burners for angel cartel then :slightly_smiling_face:
[15:30] <caprisunkraftfoods> that's a good shout
[15:30] <caprisunkraftfoods> I mean
[15:30] <caprisunkraftfoods> idk how the angel LP store is
[15:30] <caprisunkraftfoods> but when we were farming Gilas/Worms in Venal right after they got buffed it'd have been madness to cash out on Snakes
[15:31] <gorskicar> machariels are pretty bad isk/lp
[15:31] <steveronuken> 371 or so
[15:31] <caprisunkraftfoods> heh
[15:31] <caprisunkraftfoods> guristas missions were great when it was 2.5k
[15:32] <caprisunkraftfoods> hyperspatial rigged nightmare and a carrier for the blockade
[15:32] <caprisunkraftfoods> ez 300m/hr
[15:32] <steveronuken> Ratio is better to just buy, than buy the blueprint and make. which is normally the other way round.
[15:32] <gorskicar> mordus or soe are my fav to krab burners for
[15:32] <gorskicar> orthruses/garmus/barghests are awesome ships and have good ratios
[15:33] <gorskicar> Mordus angels got so lucky that ccp decided to make balanced legion ships and have their home station be the only place where you can run missions for em
[15:34] <caprisunkraftfoods> tbh most MOA nerds who actually have ISK made it by having spy alts in goons and running havens and 10/10's with them
[15:35] <gorskicar> farming LP is a pain in the ass though
[15:35] <steveronuken> I'd _love_ to have lp stores and agents being able to be brought into citadels. But that's apparently somewhat complicated.
[15:35] <gorskicar> the isk is awesome but converting sucsk
[15:35] <gorskicar> I still have 20m FW LP
[15:35] <caprisunkraftfoods> I feel like that could be a tad broken steve
[15:35] <caprisunkraftfoods> at least in null
[15:35] <gorskicar> move to feythabolis and krab missions all day from my citadel
[15:36] <steveronuken> being able to mission in null? It's an idea which gets floated every so often.
[15:36] <caprisunkraftfoods> like a big part of the value of l5's and null sec l4's is the ability to control the system and the surrounding space around the mission hubs
[15:36] <caprisunkraftfoods> so you can build a monopoly on it
[15:36] <caprisunkraftfoods> like what BL did in Venal than subsequently OOS after we left
[15:37] <steveronuken> mostly as a way to increase the player density possible in individual systems.
[15:37] <gorskicar> How are level 5s these days?
[15:39] <caprisunkraftfoods> largely crashed besides Amarr
[15:39] <caprisunkraftfoods> see: napocs currently more expensive than most pirate battleships
[15:39] <gorskicar> Minmatar FW is crashed hard as well but it doesnt matter that much with how much LP you make
[15:41] <steveronuken> best you'll get for 'easy' money is around the 700 mark
[15:42] <caprisunkraftfoods> some kind of tishu accidentally cashed out a crazy amount EU-605 instead of EG-605
[15:43] <jintaan> Lawl
[15:43] <jintaan> How mad was he
[15:43] <caprisunkraftfoods> very
[15:47] <gorskicar> at least he could multi cashout. back in my day we had to use macros to convert all that lp :stuck_out_tongue:
[15:48] <caprisunkraftfoods> http://img.skyride.org/MTAP8m.png
[15:50] <gorskicar> http://i.imgur.com/Tzoig.jpg inferno fw :heart: never forget
[15:50] <caprisunkraftfoods> wew
[15:50] <caprisunkraftfoods> is that how you solo nerds farm dosh? just blitz FW?
[15:50] <gorskicar> back then I 3boxed caracals
[15:50] <gorskicar> before the most recent nerf I ran 2x stratioses
[15:51] <gorskicar> bombers also worked fine
[17:03] <gobbins> yo who cares about your caracals gorski, this is why ppl call you a nazi
[17:03] <gobbins> :heart:
[17:04] <gobbins> but yeah jintan asked to discuss citadels and whats wrong with them - when it comes to keepstars and fortizars are people ok with them or not? ie the bomb
[17:13] <gorskicar> there is a reason I joined WHITE legion for the AT @gobbins :stuck_out_tongue:
[17:17] <cptpatrickarcher> no, the bomb is fucking mental on all of them in its current form
[17:18] <cptpatrickarcher> but not a lot of ppl have fought over them yet
[17:18] <cptpatrickarcher> imagine 2 years down the line. every station is gonna be a fortizar or up. good luck taking a region with those things and the bomb launchers
[17:45] <garsttyrell> yeah the void bomb shouldnt be in its current iteration on the astrahus, maybe they can introduce s m and l launchers/bombs
[17:45] <garsttyrell> and the current fortizar bomb can be moved to a keepstar, fortizar does half, astrahus does 1/4th
[17:45] <garsttyrell> although even that is still a lot. the range of 80km diamater really needs to shrink to like half that if not 1/3
[17:45] <garsttyrell> since its impossible to dodge, disable
[18:11] <steveronuken> I'm not sure if this is possible, but if it is, thoughts?: have 1 kind of launcher, with a bonus on the structure. Just for logistics.
[18:12] <steveronuken> So you have one kind of bomb. Which does more from the bigger ones (equal to the current value)
[18:13] <garsttyrell> yeah that would be a way to do it as well, assuming the coding is possible
[18:13] <garsttyrell> but I think the bombs are where the stats are, not the launcher
[18:22] <caprisunkraftfoods> I think tbh the bomb has just far too high a rate of fire
[18:22] <caprisunkraftfoods> it should be 60-90s
[18:57] <jintaan> @here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JKNylKkmZg9oTmAhCMAO8A8vzN8xo7-GoCFLkX8xYU8/edit?usp=sharing [cc: logbot]
[18:57] <jintaan> These are my notes so far. Any comments or further discussions on points is encouraged
[18:57] <jintaan> (Please sign your name/sign in on google)
[18:58] <caprisunkraftfoods> do you want us to add stuff?
[18:58] <caprisunkraftfoods> or just sign if we're +1 to everyone on it
[18:58] <jintaan> Comment on things, for now
[18:59] <jintaan> I'm not expecting to have a solid consensus yet
[18:59] <caprisunkraftfoods> I'd split the ADM point in two
[18:59] <jintaan> If you disagree definitely comment
[18:59] <jintaan> I've seen little discussion on ADMs
[18:59] <jintaan> So worth talking through that
[18:59] <jintaan> :slightly_smiling_face:
[18:59] <caprisunkraftfoods> there was a good chunk about that yesterday
[19:00] <caprisunkraftfoods> tl;dr outcome was the ADM mechanic is good, however it doesn't accurate reflect system usage since the only metrics it runs off are classical PVE activities (ratting and mining)
[19:00] <caprisunkraftfoods> i.e.
[19:00] <caprisunkraftfoods> good mechanic, but needs to factor in more data points
[19:00] <jintaan> Examples?
[19:01] <jintaan> What playstyles aren't represented in ADMs
[19:01] <caprisunkraftfoods> logistics beacons primarily
[19:01] <caprisunkraftfoods> also important "I don't want someone else to have this" type systems
[19:01] <caprisunkraftfoods> 7BX is a great example of that in Fountain
[19:02] <caprisunkraftfoods> Culture don't actually care about that system for PVE/ownership purposes
[19:02] <caprisunkraftfoods> they just do not understand any circumstances want someone else to have it
[19:02] <caprisunkraftfoods> because it's a perfect beach head to attacking into fountain
[19:02] <caprisunkraftfoods> @raknor: ^
[19:03] <jintaan> Well, that's kind of going against the point of ADMs
[19:03] <raknor> pretty much
[19:03] <caprisunkraftfoods> I mean
[19:03] <jintaan> In my opinion
[19:03] <jintaan> Logistics beacons/travel paths I can see
[19:03] <jintaan> But you already have a "buff ADMs here for strat reasons" button in Capital
[19:04] <jintaan> If you don't actively use a system, it should be easier to attack
[19:04] <jintaan> Correct?
[19:04] <caprisunkraftfoods> I mean, jin you asked for our opinion, literally every single other person in this channel besides you and noor said almost every aspect of it is trash and I don't think you're fairly representing that on this document
[19:05] <caprisunkraftfoods> like if you want to debate it sure
[19:05] <jintaan> On what thing specifically?
[19:05] <jintaan> If there was a thing on ADMs
[19:05] <jintaan> I completely missed it
[19:05] <caprisunkraftfoods> but you're asking "is this a fair representation of the consensus" and I don't think it is
[19:05] <jintaan> One sec I'll search logs
[19:05] <jintaan> That's fair
[19:05] <jintaan> This is why I wrote that
[19:08] <jintaan> You can comment on the doc
[19:08] <jintaan> FYI
[19:08] <jintaan> It should be a commentable doc
[19:39] <jintaan> So, yeah, throw up your thoughts there. If you disagree, let me know. I want to refine these notes into something everyone can agree on, if that means adding or removing points 100% ok with it.
[20:21] <eliserandolph> oh HeyGuys
[20:30] <gorskicar> hello
[20:30] <jintaan> Hi Elise
[20:31] <nour_samy> Hi
[20:37] <ironwulf> Still think tie more things to owning sov is a good idea. Valuable moons ect
[20:43] <jintaan> Tying moon ownership to sov removes moon fights though, and single point conflict is something we agree is lacking right now, correct?
[21:10] <cptpatrickarcher> yeah, but im not sure that exactly what he ment
[21:10] <cptpatrickarcher> single point conflicts are the most fun, i think everyone agrees on that (pos combat).
[21:11] <cptpatrickarcher> when ccp was making fozziesov they just listend to the ppl yelling the loudest, which was a bad idea :stuck_out_tongue:
[21:39] <cptpatrickarcher> Is anyone else annoyed by the fact that vulnerability windows arent public knowledge? If you want to hit any citadel, you always have to go check the timer, instead of writing it down 2 days before. You can't post an op 2 days in advance cause sometimes there is no way of knowing when it's vulnerable next.
[21:39] <cptpatrickarcher> whereas a pos you can just shoot.
[21:40] <cptpatrickarcher> You also can't see for how long it's vulnerable, when it actually is vulnerable. So you always have to show up at the start of the window, even if it is 3 hours, you cant tell.
[21:42] <garsttyrell> can non-blues see the number of docked pilots in a citadels name? cause thats free enemy intel
[22:07] <killahbee> so
[22:07] <killahbee> has there ever been any activity of any ccp dev in this
[22:07] <killahbee> or is this supposed to be us cirklejerking about all the topics
[22:07] <killahbee> any direction maybe
[22:13] <cptpatrickarcher> I think it's us talking about topics csm has provided. Make it into something we all agree on and present that as 1 voice on the summit. The ccp folks here are just here to monitor i guess.
[22:13] <cptpatrickarcher> If it was a CCP thing the CCP slack would have been used I guess.
[22:14] <killahbee> oh ok
[22:14] <killahbee> wel
[22:14] <killahbee> nvm me then just keep on discussing