[12:15] <cptpatrickarcher> So, lets talk some more about citadel "capture mechanics".
[12:16] <cptpatrickarcher> Do we feel it's good taht you have to bash them for 30 mins, 3 times?
[12:16] <cptpatrickarcher> Or should there be a mechanic to speed that up by risking more assets. (Im thinking of 1-cycling a max hardener pos with 30 dreads or something). Instead of shooting it for 30 mins with 5.
[12:17] <cptpatrickarcher> Because I HATE it that we have to spend so much time on them silly structures, where you can kill like an entire constellation worth of poses for the cost of one astrahus.
[12:22] <steveronuken> Citadels are _supposed_ to be hard to take down. or people won't use them, and just relocate to NPC null. and being able to power straight through directly rewards n+1 gameplay. With the longer time period, it gives people a (short) chance to form and defend. If you take away the cap, you pretty much _have_ to add remote rep for citadels.
[12:23] <cptpatrickarcher> But n+1 always matters. You can't bash a hostile citadel with 20 guys because it doesnt require more. Because then the defenders come with 100 and you lost. So you need to bring 100+ to fight the defending side, if they decide to fight. Otherwise sitting there for 30 mins regardless, wasting many more manhours.
[12:23] <cptpatrickarcher> There is no limiting factor to n+1 on poses
[12:23] <cptpatrickarcher> And literally everyone loves them
[12:23] <cptpatrickarcher> Why is that?
[12:24] <innominate> Because poses are much more limited and the ones people fight over pay to attack
[12:24] <innominate> Not all things in nullsec worth fighting over should work the same way
[12:25] <cptpatrickarcher> @innominate that is true, yet people want to burn other peoples shit too (think of random towers, stations or now med citadels). why should it take so much longer to grind dumb astrahuses
[12:26] <innominate> i do feel like the astrahus is too hard to kill, but consider fotizar are more or less on par with outposts which are completely indestructable
[12:26] <innominate> from a cost perspective that is
[12:26] <cptpatrickarcher> i think the fortizar is alright, since it's more expensive. apart from the retarded bomb launcher.
[12:26] <cptpatrickarcher> astrahuses as dropped literally everywhere
[12:26] <cptpatrickarcher> and they are essentially the most annoying to kill, not the hardest, the most annoying
[12:28] <innominate> i think the answer to that is to just make them easier though, the underlying mechanic i think is quite solid
[12:28] <cptpatrickarcher> we just cleaned 2 regions after the SW war, but we left all the astrahuses. cause they are set to 1400 eve time or something dumb and they take way to much time to kill. and they are literally in every system, even if its just to cap up ratting supers
[12:28] <cptpatrickarcher> So you agree with a damage cap?
[12:28] <cptpatrickarcher> What about an exponential damage cap?
[12:29] <cptpatrickarcher> For instance, 5 dreads take 30 mins. 15 dreads take 20 mins 30 dreads take 15 mins
[12:29] <cptpatrickarcher> and 150 dreads take 5 mins. Just making these numbers up ofc.
[12:29] <innominate> i think the basic damage cap mechanic is solid, any problems with something being too easy or hard are just a matter of changing the cap and the amount of health
[12:30] <innominate> maybe only give the astrahus a single reinforcement timer
[12:31] <cptpatrickarcher> that would be huge, and take away a lot of the pain from cleaning those i guess
[12:31] <cptpatrickarcher> then it's just the bomb launcher that is mental and if thats fixed
[12:31] <cptpatrickarcher> i think we are all happy :slightly_smiling_face:
[12:31] <cptpatrickarcher> (for now ofc) lol
[12:31] <cptpatrickarcher> Well, and much bigger vulnerability windows
[12:31] <cptpatrickarcher> 3h a week, like wtf were they thinking
[12:33] <cptpatrickarcher> The obsession to force "the little guy" into putting assets on the line with a big guy 1 jump away is a fantasy.
[12:33] <cptpatrickarcher> The big guy will 99% of the time dumpster the shit of their citadels, no matter how annoying they make the gamemechanics
[12:33] <cptpatrickarcher> Peoples need to blow shit up has no bounds :stuck_out_tongue:
[15:33] <killahbee> ya vuln windows on astrahus is way to strong
[15:33] <killahbee> I also think that the 1 week reinforce timer after the shield is way to long
[15:33] <killahbee> they keep putting in the timezone game
[15:33] <killahbee> where you can literally defeat an alliance but just timing all your shit for their worst tz
[15:33] <killahbee> and go afk
[15:42] <cptpatrickarcher> This is already true with sov, but to much greater extend with citadels.
[15:43] <innominate> Stront in pos is one thing ccp got right along time ago then forgot about
[15:43] <cptpatrickarcher> It should be vulnerable more, so fights get created. If you are good and can defend it, you earned it. Mechanics shouldnt defend a shitler by making it super annoying to target him.
[15:44] <cptpatrickarcher> @innominate: very much this.
[15:44] <innominate> Giving both sides the ability to influence the timer, with the defender having to do SOMETHING but still having far more/easier control than the attackers.
[15:45] <cptpatrickarcher> Agreed.
[15:45] <innominate> So an active defender will usually get the timer they want but they have to be active. While an attacker can do things like attack at an off hour in the hopes nobody is awake or kite which requires long activity
[15:46] <innominate> I wonder if you could set the reinforcement timer based on 50% shields rather than actual reinforcement time
[15:46] <innominate> e.g. the defender sets their timer at 12:00, attacker knocks the thing under 50% and starts a timer, when the thing is reinforced that timer gets added to the defenders timer.
[15:48] <innominate> So you can get the ability to kite things into a better TZ, which has its risks because it requires holding that point. No longer can the defender use the reinforcement timer just as a blocker because if they never defend it makes it easy to shift the reinforcement timer into a bad time
[16:09] <cptpatrickarcher> it reps up really quickly, so you'd need to be there with your entire fleet to kite it for hours. Not sure that's fun gameplay either.
[16:09] <cptpatrickarcher> With a pos you can just leave and bridge in whenever they attempt to rep it.
[16:25] <cptpatrickarcher> @jintaan or anyone else who feels in charge. Do you want us to discuss more points from the initial doc?
[16:27] <innominate> it's not fun gameplay unless the defenders defend, If just kiting made for automatic fun it would be horribly biased towards the attackers.
[19:08] <killahbee> lets make citadels degenerate fatigue
[19:08] <killahbee> ))
[19:08] <killahbee> astrahus super low and keepstar super fast