[13:35] <noxisia> I'm concerned with giving t3s too much of a range bonus (neuts), just my experience in wh space but it's hard to pull a group off of a hole since they tend to feel pretty safe sitting in jump range. Letting logi/neuts go out too far would let them fight within 10km of the hole and be effective out to a decent distance. Also a 'low-class' line member. Cost does matter.
[14:59] <icarus_narcissus> Even a small bonus can have a major impact, eve is a game of lots of 2% and 5% bonuses after all. Also, adding this in, as a 'low-class' CEO, cost definitely matters.
[15:37] <sullen> i'm a little concerned with the net range as well for the same issue @noxisia had. pushing the range + bonus on legion means you'll get groups who just sit at 0 all the time on wh's with a couple legions as a giant middle finger to anyone who wants to fight them since they'll neut you dry within 20km
[15:43] <noxisia> or jump through and leave if a fleet they feel threatened by shows up
[15:51] <sturm_gewehr> How much range is "too much"?
[15:51] <sturm_gewehr> For wh?
[15:56] <noxisia> If they had to have a bonus which I don't think they need I'd cut your proposed in 1/2. (5%, 2.5%)... but again I'm not sure I love a neut range bonus.
[16:00] <exooki> im not sure that changes much though, a lot of fleets do that now as is
[16:01] <exooki> HAMS, webs, and points can all go out to 20, so i can sit right on the WH, fighting, and just nope out as soon as I start losing. its a common WH tactic
[16:01] <exooki> im not sure that giving legions neuts would significantly impact that
[16:01] <exooki> if anything, it would allow legions to join in, whereas right now if I want neuts out to 20-30 I need a geddon/bhaal
[16:02] <exooki> without range, would neut legions be used at all in K space?
[16:02] <noxisia> I'd disagree with it because it makes curse/gheddon/bhaal less unique. I'm also not sure I particularly want to reinforce that play style?
[16:02] <exooki> im not sure they need to be unique, theyll always have sheer neut amount over a legion
[16:05] <exooki> right now the legion gets a neut amount, if we trade that into range, than it offers a weaker neuts, out a bit farther
[16:06] <exooki> it is eclipsed by a BS in both neut amount, and range. and the pilgrim has both neut amount AND range
[16:06] <exooki> it can likely tank more than a pilgrim/curse, but trads off neut amount
[16:06] <exooki> which i think is an idea trade
[16:07] <exooki> tank and neut amount and range ( but slow, and mass) -> geddon/bhaal
[16:07] <exooki> tank and range ( less mass and faster than above) -> Legion
[16:07] <exooki> range and amount( less mass, faster than BS)-> Recon
[16:08] <exooki> that to me seems like decent choices
[16:13] <noxisia> Yes, that makes sense to me and it give you a reason to select one ship over another aside from tank/mass.
[16:25] <exooki> i think it helps give FRecs a better spot
[16:48] <icarus_narcissus> I personally disagree. Range reduces risk. Given the fact these ships already have the potential to be so heavily tanked, cloaked, and/or nullified, giving them yet another risk mitigation tool -- range -- makes me concerned they would become too preferable despite other potential drawbacks that may be introduced.
[16:49] <exooki> what situation do you see where the extra range would change risk adversity?
[16:53] <icarus_narcissus> Change risk adversity? People each have their own tolerance for risk adversity. What I'm saying is the range would change risk. A ship at 20km stands a better chance at escaping a fight than a ship at 15km etc.
[16:57] <exooki> it depends on the fleet is is flying with
[16:57] <exooki> t3C fleets ( in wh at least) are very rarely hit and run
[16:58] <exooki> if the fleet is sitting on the WH to retreat, changing the range wont change anything, it was within jump range in both cases, as the attacker youd be able to be farther from the fight, and thus easier to escape, but you are trading neut amount for that privilege
[17:21] <noxisia> I'm still okay with the trade-off, but range does scale better with larger numbers; which would make them more useful in fleets (warp speed over BS, tank over recon).
[17:32] <sturm_gewehr> Neut curses won't be taken in skirmish fleets without a range bonus.
[17:33] <sturm_gewehr> And probably needs a strength bonus as well.
[17:34] <sturm_gewehr> I don't understand where it is a huge issue that they have a smaller than curse/pilgrim bonus to range and amount mitigated the usefulness of pilgrims and curses, keep in mind those hulls can also TD.
[17:36] <sturm_gewehr> If it won't break other metas to include a weaker ranged bonus, it would add options for small gang, tournament meta and skirmish doctrines.
[17:39] <exooki> well, i wasnt sugegsting any changes to the curse/pilgrim
[17:39] <exooki> they already have range and amount bonuses
[17:48] <noxisia> How many fleets larger than 5-10 use tracking disrupters regularly? Unlike ECM/nuets they tend not to scale very well in numbers.
[17:48] <sullen> @exooki i think what you had there is fine
[17:48] <sullen> it's not the range that's the issue
[17:48] <sullen> ti's the range + ammount issue
[17:49] <sullen> literally making legions the end all beall of neuting cause you get bonus +rang+tank
[17:49] <exooki> right, i see making them tank + range creating that meaningful decision i think we are aiming for
[17:50] <exooki> im sure larger fleets will always choose the legion, for its tank, or a BS if workable, but leaving the legion with the neut amount keeps Frecs pointless in most situations
[17:50] <exooki> right now, ic ant have a bonused neut cloaky, but I can post changes, so in its planned form, it will easily eclipse the recons
[17:54] <sullen> i mean that wouldn't be as bad
[17:55] <icarus_narcissus> Exo, I thought that CCP was aiming for Strat cruisers being niche roles not necessarily the ship you'd pick for the large fleet engagements?
[17:55] <sullen> but it also means they can counter by just brining more legions
[17:55] <sullen> and still neut out
[17:55] <sullen> pretty much everything
[17:56] <sullen> the big question then is range or ammount
[17:56] <sullen> exooki is clearly range
[18:00] <exooki> @icarus_narcissus aiming for wider use, but not eclipsing any
[18:00] <exooki> wider purposes*
[18:00] <exooki> niche too, but i think cloak + tank + speed + cruiser mass + neut amount eclipses Frecs
[18:02] <exooki> why take a curse or pilgrim if I can have a legion that does it ( minus the range, but we can make that up with speed and tank, legion will have more fitting slots) and higher survivability
[18:04] <sturm_gewehr> @exooki I meant legion, was a typo.
[18:05] <sturm_gewehr> All these arguments apply for the other recon subs.
[18:06] <sturm_gewehr> I don't think a moderate bonus will completely crowd out other options while enabling more.
[18:07] <sturm_gewehr> I think it at least should be considered after we get the stats to see what the numbers are.
[18:31] <sturm_gewehr> I am worried the thinking here is getting binary. We have a lot of leeway in the strength of the bonuses and the stats of the hull and sub. We could add range and strength and still leave lots of options for blood raider ships, geddon and neut recons.
[18:32] <sturm_gewehr> Again I never suggested having neut legion be on par bonus wise for curse and pilgrim.
[18:33] <noxisia> Here's my thought process on the legion vs. the jamgu. I see a lot more armageddons than scorpions in fleets because the jamgu has a decent range bonus, tank, and can keep up with the fleet
[18:33] <noxisia> if we add a range bonus to the legion we're not doing varied fleet comps any favors
[18:33] <noxisia> and none of those fleets will take recons because of tank.
[18:33] <noxisia> Even though the strength of the jams are less than the recon
[18:34] <sturm_gewehr> And the sp loss, price point, potential stat changes like increased sig, lower speed and agility may make the hull less of a straight upgrade. Also consider the recon subs have different vulnerabilities such as targetting versus their recon counterparts.
[18:34] <sturm_gewehr> In my gameplay I never, ever see neut legions.
[18:34] <sturm_gewehr> Ever.
[18:34] <sturm_gewehr> It doesn't exist.
[18:35] <sturm_gewehr> All the other recons I see.
[18:35] <sullen> wait what?
[18:36] <sullen> what's your gameplay?
[18:36] <noxisia> I see recons in lowsec and for small gang stuff
[18:36] <sturm_gewehr> Small gang, tournaments, skirmish, solo.
[18:36] <sturm_gewehr> Check my edit.
[18:36] <sturm_gewehr> I said recon and meant recon subs*
[18:36] <noxisia> ah
[18:37] <noxisia> That's my point - you see them because they're better than everything else despite the SP loss trade
[18:37] <sturm_gewehr> Not at all.
[18:38] <noxisia> if you removed the range bonus from the tengu, loki, proteus - (and gave more of a navy-short range bonus) - you'd never see them outside of small group play
[18:38] <sturm_gewehr> Loki, tengu and proteus subs aren't straight upgrades to recons for small gang.
[18:38] <sturm_gewehr> It's all situational.
[18:39] <noxisia> right, but adding range makes them much better in a fleet.
[18:39] <noxisia> because when you call targets you don't have to burn towards something new
[18:40] <noxisia> so I can only nuet 10km in a legion - that's a very niche use. but if I can get 70% of the jam utility out of a tengu with it's tank - it's a no brainer if I'm not super worried about theisk lost.
[18:40] <sturm_gewehr> Talking about neut legions, what do you see as the breakpoint, range bonus wise, of neut legions being healthy or broken?
[18:41] <sullen> short range cause you have the speed
[18:41] <sullen> the thing about the bhaal is that youer' nto moving fast
[18:41] <sullen> so the range is a necessity
[18:41] <sturm_gewehr> We don't know the speed atm.
[18:41] <sullen> the legion can move though
[18:41] <sullen> no
[18:41] <sturm_gewehr> And for skirmish you want to avoid close range.
[18:41] <sullen> but we know it'll be faster than a battleship :stuck_out_tongue:
[18:41] <noxisia> right which makes it difficult to say at what range I think they'd be broken
[18:41] <sullen> exactly
[18:41] <noxisia> so I'm speaking in general terms
[18:41] <sturm_gewehr> Not everyone uses legions to brawl.
[18:41] <noxisia> I agree
[18:42] <noxisia> I've seen RML and Heavy missile legions too
[18:42] <noxisia> and mid range laser
[18:42] <noxisia> usually you see a 20-30km ham legion
[18:43] <noxisia> I like the fact that you have to commit to a fight with a neut legion
[18:43] <noxisia> AND I don't know that we want to continue to evolve the kitey meta?
[18:43] <noxisia> is it a healthy thing?
[18:44] <sullen> i look at it this way
[18:44] <noxisia> again, I'm not dead set against a range bonus to the legion, but I'm against it having both
[18:44] <sullen> ify ou have a legion that can neut out long range
[18:44] <sullen> it's literally not a decision
[18:44] <sullen> you bring it
[18:44] <sullen> because you can escape if you need to
[18:44] <sturm_gewehr> Please define long range.
[18:44] <sturm_gewehr> So we are on the same page.
[18:44] <noxisia> 2/3 or greater of curse ranges
[18:45] <sturm_gewehr> Curse has a massive variety in ranges because things like heavy neut curses are a thing.
[18:45] <noxisia> medium
[18:45] <sturm_gewehr> I would appreciate numbers.
[18:45] <sturm_gewehr> Like "long range neuts are X km"
[18:47] <sturm_gewehr> An idea I also just heard, change curse bonuses to range and cycle time reduction (and heat bonus) instead of range and strengtg.
[18:50] <sullen> bhaal/pilgrim your'e looking at 20km optilal at all V curse is 30km
[18:50] <sullen> all with 10km falloff
[18:50] <sullen> with t2 mods of course
[18:50] <noxisia> with all 5s curse is 30+10km
[18:50] <noxisia> legion now is 10+5km
[18:50] <noxisia> with t2 mediums
[18:51] <noxisia> if you pushed the legion out to 20km and gave it a strength bonus I think that would be a problem
[18:51] <sullen> agreed
[18:51] <noxisia> if you gave it a very moderate optimal push - say 12-14km? Maybe... but you're still running into scram kite range
[18:52] <sullen> i think that would probably be the maximum cause you would still need to heat to get them
[18:52] <noxisia> It sounds like you want the curse to be in a similar position as the tengu/loki/proteus - but I think those ships as they are now eclipse some of the recons and other ewar platforms. I'm hesitant to push the legion into the armageddon/bhaal niche.
[18:53] <noxisia> I think we already face a problem where we're obsoleting recons - (and there's ways to fix that) but it is out of our scope..
[18:57] <caprisunkraftfoods> noxisia idk what you're talking about re neut legions
[18:57] <caprisunkraftfoods> in a heavy armor brawl you're already using rage hams most of the time
[18:57] <caprisunkraftfoods> which have ~20k range absolute max
[18:57] <caprisunkraftfoods> and the legions are flying AB fit against typically MWD fit ships
[18:58] <caprisunkraftfoods> like any heavy armor brawl has absolutely shitloads of neuts on fiedl
[18:58] <noxisia> ...yes
[18:58] <caprisunkraftfoods> thats why armor/HAM is the thing
[18:58] <sturm_gewehr> I don't see neut legions, even 20km optimal, pushing out pilgrim and curse for large fleets, and it certainly wouldn't push those out for small gang with those numbers.
[18:58] <sturm_gewehr> Pilgrim and curse don't see any real use in large fleets currently.
[18:58] <sturm_gewehr> At least not to my knowledge.
[18:59] <noxisia> They don't
[18:59] <caprisunkraftfoods> are you talking wormholes are k-space?
[18:59] <noxisia> I was talking wormholes in my example but yeah I get seeing a kitey legion is like seeing a unicorn in wh space.
[18:59] <noxisia> I'm not sure htat's the point we need to dig into here?
[18:59] <sturm_gewehr> For curse and pilgrim in large fleets? Either wormholes or kspace.
[19:00] <noxisia> You won't see them in either because of the tank issues; so you see the battleship equivelant
[19:00] <noxisia> but you'll never see a scorpion
[19:00] <caprisunkraftfoods> I mean HK uses curses all the time
[19:00] <caprisunkraftfoods> especially in pulsars
[19:00] <caprisunkraftfoods> a decent number of well fit curses are amazingly effective against the small numbers of caps/faxes you see in null these days
[19:00] <caprisunkraftfoods> http://img.skyride.org/BHKKWe.png
[19:01] <caprisunkraftfoods> I bring that fit on an alt all the time
[19:01] <caprisunkraftfoods> also the reason you hardly see neut legions in kspace is almost entirely because neuts aren't actually useful enough to lose DPS ships for it
[19:01] <sturm_gewehr> I don't think a neut legion with range bonus (less than curse) would outshine a curse in a pulsar.
[19:02] <noxisia> it wouldn't but a pulsar is bonused towards shield
[19:02] <noxisia> so you'd be throwing away the armor tank of the legion
[19:02] <noxisia> is that curse for work outside of pulsars?
[19:02] <sturm_gewehr> My point being, adding a range bonus to legion won't invalidate the curses role.
[19:03] <sturm_gewehr> Yes it does noxis.
[19:03] <noxisia> Just curious
[19:03] <sturm_gewehr> Curses like that see use in skirmish fleets.
[19:03] <caprisunkraftfoods> like no joke
[19:03] <caprisunkraftfoods> you could double the EHP of a curse
[19:03] <sturm_gewehr> In kspace.
[19:03] <caprisunkraftfoods> and you still wouldn't see them used in kspace
[19:03] <caprisunkraftfoods> not in situations they aren't used already anyway
[19:03] <caprisunkraftfoods> non-BS sized neuts are just not that useful in k-space
[19:04] <sturm_gewehr> What I am trying to cover is where adding a neut range bonus will overlap/outshine existing options.
[19:04] <sturm_gewehr> Because it was brought up as a reason to not add a ranged bonus.
[19:05] <caprisunkraftfoods> none
[19:05] <sturm_gewehr> I disagree about curse in kspace.
[19:05] <sturm_gewehr> It is pretty useful.
[19:05] <caprisunkraftfoods> I mean not in fleet fights anyway
[19:05] <noxisia> Totally understand your points of view; I've given my reasoning and I'm not going to labor the point.
[19:05] <sturm_gewehr> Maybe not in blobs, but even some medium sized gangs.
[19:08] <caprisunkraftfoods> I mean sorry I'm not following here like
[19:09] <caprisunkraftfoods> curses and neut legions just aren't in the same class
[19:09] <caprisunkraftfoods> they're such different ships
[19:09] <caprisunkraftfoods> I can't really envision a scenario in which both would be viable options
[19:11] <frsd> we've used curses to some success vs specific doctrines in like 50v50 fleet fights
[19:11] <frsd> but it's very niche
[19:12] <frsd> but neut legions just have too little range to ever matter in k-space atm
[19:14] <frsd> and the cap alpha also isnt there
[19:14] <frsd> current bonus is like 50% to amount
[19:14] <frsd> curse gets 100%
[19:14] <sturm_gewehr> It could be very viable for skirmish if you did a neut legion that could neut in the same range as heavy neuts. For example, active tank sub, neut sub, ham sub, speed/agility sub is 7/4/6 layout. 5 hams and 2 neuts in the highslots, mwd, injector, point, scram/web/sebo/missile comp in the mids and lows are whatever.
[19:16] <sturm_gewehr> Can neut out tackle as they get into range to scram, neut from outside scram/web/grappler range of stuff you don't want to brawl with.
[19:18] <sturm_gewehr> Can do it with turret sub also for similar effect.
[19:41] <sturm_gewehr> @sturm_gewehr pinned a message to this channel.
[19:41] <sturm_gewehr> [June 14th, 2017 9:12 AM] sturm_gewehr: Thoughts about a small range bonus for neut legion?
[19:43] <exooki> ( catching up a lot of dicussion), in WH space neut legions were the meta for a while until bhaal prices well to turbo cheap
[19:43] <exooki> both all neuts, and mix ham/neuts
[19:44] <exooki> once bhaals became 300m, i could bring 1, and the neut power of 2-3, so they became the obvious choice
[19:44] <exooki> asuming bhaals increase in price with the faction BS changes, neut legions may become increasingly attractive for lower class/ less wealthy WH corps