[00:17] <icarus_narcissus> Hey o7
[00:22] <aryth> oh a separate channel hur
[00:22] <aryth> I suck at da slack
[00:23] <aryth> anyway. generally we like the t3 destroyer model where you choose a role. granted, making a change as fast as t3 destroyers for nullifiers is probably still overpowered. however, in general it is good to see nullifiers disabled while in a pvp scenario but enabled for travel
[00:24] <aryth> the timer would need to be fairly long though. long enough you SS up to do it
[00:27] <noxisia> o7
[00:47] <titus.tallang> would that extend to not being able to tackle while nullified, @aryth
[14:58] <rowells> @aryth not to deny your desire, but T3D style modes were asked about earlier and that's something that won't be happening this round at a minimum. If ever
[15:09] <rowells> But on that note, if we were to use modes, I think we'd honestly lose out on a lot of uses for T3s since balancing 15+ bonuses on X amount of modes would be super difficult
[15:16] <exooki> i think its far too late to consdier such a deviation from the current path
[15:16] <exooki> i think everyone agrees combat nullification is bad but the current plan on nerfed agility, and increased warp speed seemed a decent compromise
[15:17] <noxisia> Yes.
[15:18] <icarus_narcissus> Agreed
[15:18] <rowells> So what would that leave the (former) warp speed sub with in exchange?
[15:19] <rowells> Or does it need a replacement at all? Now it's just down to agility bonus
[15:23] <icarus_narcissus> It's the Tengu and proteus.... I can definitely understand the hesitancy to give them a velocity bonus and they already have an agility bonus... Is there a reason they can't both have warp speed? There isn't a hard rule there can't be any overlap... Drone Synthesis Projector and Hybrid Encoding Platform both have hybrid turret tracking. Covert Reconfiguration and Amplification Node both have shield booster effectiveness.
[15:23] <icarus_narcissus> different values of it yes
[15:44] <noxisia> Anyone else concerned that from a brawling standpoint (obv not kiting) that you can get Tengus with 2-3x the tank of a scimitar that can rep more? Or against a basi - can rep 293 hp/s self boosting for 4+ minutes with 30k extra ehp (T2 mediums) against a basi's 340hp/s (T2 Large)? If you compare it against B-type mediums the Tengu out reps the basi and you can get the tengu stable and still have 60k+ EHP (unstable you can do 100k ehp blingy or 90k t2 on the Tengu).
[15:45] <rowells> We've been referring to the tengu almost exclusively this entire time so I'm curious if we'll see the bonus on all the nulli subs or not
[15:45] <noxisia> With Faction mediums the range of the tengu vs. the range of the logistics is 1x falloff pretty similar (obv more falloff on the t3s part).
[15:45] <rowells> @noxisia how much more can they rep?
[15:46] <noxisia> if you can somehow fit a scimitar w/4 large t2 reps it'll rep more than a t2 tengu - but if you have to use compacts (which is likely) they'll be pretty similar
[15:46] <noxisia> and if you're using Faction mediums on a scimitar (for fitting space for solo gangs) the tengu will out perform (although again, it is much slower)
[15:47] <rowells> Maybe it's time for faction/deadspace larges
[15:47] <noxisia> 340 hp/s with 4 larges, 300hp/s with 4 compacts (large) for a scimi. and 293 hp/s from the tengu.
[15:47] <noxisia> I'm including the -13.2% from a T2 command burst in the tengu
[15:48] <noxisia> otherwise it'd be lower (since it can cycle time boost itself) and in a pair they can use the shield hardening to good effect
[15:49] <noxisia> I'll throw up the fits I was playing with - the obvious weakness is sensor strength; but you can reduce EHP by rigging or using mids/lows to counteract.
[15:52] <noxisia> If you use B-types on a tengu with a decent amount of bling you can hit 100k ehp, and rep 365hp/s (again using the -13.2% cycle time for the boosts).
[15:52] <noxisia> posting some fits;
[15:53] <noxisia> @noxisia uploaded a file: image.png https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/files/noxisia/F613N07FZ/image.png
[15:54] <noxisia> Not to mention with a large cap battery and the Graviton Reactor you're getting neut resistance from both... not sure if we've talked about how that will stack?
[15:55] <noxisia> @noxisia uploaded a file: image.png https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/files/noxisia/F6135FHEJ/image.png
[15:56] <noxisia> You also have 100 hp/s shield regen happening at the TOP of the shield cycle... what's that at 20-30 peak recharge?
[15:56] <noxisia> I tried playing w/damage controls, relays, and flux coils but diagnostics seemed to stack incredibly well on the new logi fits
[15:57] <noxisia> (and of course reactor controls)
[16:10] <rowells> tbf AB logi and MWD logi work fairly differently in the scheme of things. so long as logi remain healthy on one over the other this isn't too bad
[16:11] <noxisia> agree
[16:11] <rowells> heftier logi would be the T3 specialty, like they are compared to recons
[16:13] <noxisia> Heftier sure, but more neut resistant (or if you switch subs harder to jam) and with the potential to rep more? That seems a little off.
[16:14] <noxisia> and we feel like recons are in a good place compared to T3s currently?
[16:14] <noxisia> cause I see a lot of jamgus in fleets and not many falcons.
[16:15] <noxisia> A lot of fights get decided on who can alpha who's logi the fastest - and now we're introducing a beefier logi
[16:16] <noxisia> Plus, if I bring RR tengus and Jamgus - you're going to have to pick out which is which in the middle of a fight
[16:16] <exooki> what tradeoffs would you want to see T3C VS t2?
[16:16] <noxisia> either significantly shorter range or less effective rep power
[16:16] <exooki> i think voerall their previously short range was a main reason people didnt use them
[16:17] <noxisia> I'd agree
[16:17] <exooki> even in wormhole space where the fight is usually pretty close they werent used much because their range was too short even for that
[16:17] <noxisia> yeah, no doubt - but if cash isn't an issue and I'm not kiting
[16:17] <exooki> id think we just need less rep amount? so you can ahve tankier logi, but youll need more to compare with the t2?
[16:17] <noxisia> why wouldn't I take one of the new t3 fits?
[16:18] <noxisia> I think that'd at least make someone have to choose.... but again then I just bring 3 tengus instead of 2. I'm sure there's a better answer but I may not be smart enough to see it.
[16:26] <noxisia> W/T2 purger rigs the T2 fit gets a passive regen of 150 EHP/S (up from 92 hp/s) at 100% shields... and can run 4 medium reps cap stable... while I can't see that being terribly useful it seems like a lot of bonus tank and pretty survivable as the solo logi on a gank.
[16:26] <white0rchid> Skill loss is a big thing
[16:26] <white0rchid> If we went with t3 logi for every stratop
[16:26] <noxisia> Fair point
[16:26] <caprisunkraftfoods> http://img.skyride.org/jxRaip.png
[16:26] <caprisunkraftfoods> thats no links
[16:26] <white0rchid> Where sometimes we can lose 5-10 logi
[16:26] <white0rchid> that's 5-10 dudes who gotta buy injectors or train 3 days now
[16:27] <caprisunkraftfoods> remember none of the sub systems are 100% critical anymore
[16:27] <white0rchid> t3 logi are used in lowsec where you can slave them up and be fairly safe, but not so much on big tidi fest fleets as the cost of them is too high compared to guards/scimis etc
[16:28] <caprisunkraftfoods> the reason they're not used by most people atm is more about range
[16:28] <caprisunkraftfoods> you're going to see logi t3s a lot more now
[16:29] <white0rchid> The closer logi costs gets to a FAX, the less likely it'll be used as well
[16:32] <caprisunkraftfoods> theres a lot of situations where that isn't really a choice though
[16:33] <exooki> faxes are a different animal though
[16:33] <exooki> cost wise 1 fax may be more isk efficient than even 4-5 of these, but thats an escalation, in WHs thats a pvp ender
[16:34] <noxisia> agree
[16:36] <noxisia> ..I don't run much w/the HS incursion groups; any thoughts on whether these will do anything for those groups?
[16:36] <noxisia> (logi t3s)
[16:39] <exooki> well if they are tankier and rep the same amount, wouldnt be surprised if they usurp t2 logi. cost has never been an issue for them
[16:40] <exooki> i can go find some, what aspect you thinking about? or just overall?
[16:41] <noxisia> I was thinking that being able to be tankier, potentially rep more, and also throw a burst on field would allow them to bring more dps
[16:41] <ccp_fozzie> Ideally the goal would be an interesting set of tradeoffs between T2 and T3C logi
[16:41] <ccp_fozzie> either way we're hoping to essentially create a new role where a truly viable one didn't exist before
[16:41] <ccp_fozzie> which is always a bit risky
[16:42] <ccp_fozzie> if we decide they're too strong we have options to tweak, with range probably being near the top of that list
[16:43] <sullen> i like this
[16:43] <exooki> the range could be brought in, but if it gets less than half of that, it probably wont be used at all
[16:44] <ccp_fozzie> I'd be interested in options from you folks ranging from "they're too weak, buff them", ""they seem ok to release as is and observe and tweak as needed after release" or "fuck these things are way too strong you need to nerf them pre-release"
[16:47] <noxisia> I think you need to look at the COVOPs tractor bonus - it'll make daytrippers almost impossible to catch doing a site (although if released, I will def grab a tengu to run c3s in).
[16:48] <noxisia> and I think the logi's as they are right now have either too much tank, rep power, range, neut resistance, and utility. One of those has got to go. Choosing rep power means that larger groups grab more T3Cs and smaller groups go to T2 Logi... a lot like recons are now.
[16:49] <noxisia> Everything else I'm pretty happy with
[16:52] <rowells> I think the underlying issue with T3 logi comes into play with deadspace reps. theyre relatively cheap and fairly close in performance to larges, which leaves T2 logi pressed up against the ceiling
[16:53] <rowells> but this also means desiging the ship around the consequences of deadspace modules might make them lackluster in every other case
[16:54] <rowells> I kinda joked about it earlier, but the easiest solution might be raising that ceiling for large reps by finishing off the progression
[16:55] <rowells> then there will be a clear cut power difference between similarily fit T3/T2 logi
[16:57] <exooki> you mean adding faction/deadspace large reps?
[16:57] <sullen> i'm also not a fan that the covert ops has very little effect on effectivness and really only affects tank. with enough logistics the tank loss isn't as relevant unless in situations where ships are being alpha'ed off the field
[17:02] <rowells> @exooki yes, pretty much.
[17:02] <rowells> Either that or T3s are going to have to find an odd position where their max isn't overpowering but their minimum isn't underwhelming
[17:03] <rowells> Which is completely reliant on the window between T1 and deadspace mediums
[17:15] <rowells> Well, either that or scale back the number of highslots on the support sub
[17:17] <noxisia> that would reduce it's utility somewhat - you'd have to decide if you wanted boosts and it'd limit the number of shield reps it could take. And since it's bonused for both it wouldn't free much up for extra tank. Again, I think anything that has to do with power puts them in the position that the recons are in. Falcon / curse has better range but I don't see them on field in a group very often.
[17:17] <noxisia> Even though the recon's jams are stronger
[17:36] <exooki> i imagine that boils downt ot ank tho
[17:36] <exooki> the tank vs efficienty tradeoff is almost always going to swing to tank for larger engagements
[17:36] <exooki> but the other way in smaller gangs, and thats probably unlikely to change
[17:36] <exooki> not sure if it needs to
[17:38] <noxisia> right but it doesn't create a meaningful distinction
[17:38] <noxisia> if you always pick x instead of y; y is not better.
[17:40] <noxisia> The only other meaningful consideration is range and if we nerf it into the ground then it's the same reason NOT to take t3s as before the patch
[17:41] <rowells> Range and tank effectively do the same thing in some regards
[17:41] <noxisia> Also, no one else has an issue with COVOPs being able to run c3s and be virtually uncatchable?
[17:41] <noxisia> good point
[17:42] <rowells> Huh?
[17:42] <noxisia> With the changes you can get 1k tank, 500 dps, and a 48km tractor range on a covops tengu or proteus
[17:43] <eustise> nullification locking penalty kills any real offensive use, and if he's using a cloaking sub and gets bubbled, he's fucked anyway
[17:43] <noxisia> in wormhole space being able to cloak in system and walk away from your computer is pretty valuable
[17:43] <noxisia> especially if you can run a site with a covops cloak on
[17:44] <noxisia> and since I can fit a tractor you can't just sit at a wreck or MTU to grab tackle
[17:45] <eustise> can you tell me how you're going to run a site with your cloak activated?
[17:45] <noxisia> I'm not
[17:45] <noxisia> but I can start tractoring a wreck (from 48km) align to something, keep fighting since my HMLs reach out to 82km and then scoop the loot
[17:45] <noxisia> and if you warp to the wreck as I tractor it w/in 5km of me and you decloak - I just warp and hit the covops cloak and warp
[17:46] <noxisia> The opportunity to grab tackle on a covops fit ship w/a tractor beam bonus is EXTREMELY small
[17:46] <eustise> i don't know about you, but i already have a scout in the site, see you're not near a warpable, combat scan you down or place a scout near you and then warp a sabre from the in-hole and bubble up
[17:47] <eustise> plus, don't bet on the tractor bonus staying
[17:47] <noxisia> right
[17:47] <noxisia> if you can combat scan a dude down and warp a saber in
[17:47] <noxisia> he's not paying attention
[17:47] <noxisia> you deserve that kill
[17:47] <eustise> i mean, it's not really any more difficult than someone krabbing in his hole and warping to tether
[17:47] <noxisia> nope
[17:48] <noxisia> but it's significantly harder than waiting at his MTU or a wreck in the site as he goes to loot. All I'm pointing out is that this makes krabbing safer
[17:50] <eustise> the only thing that changes is the full offensive bonus, sure, didn't do the math but it just seems like it'd be an expensive fit for c3 krabbing, and if you're between using a rattle and finishing the site in half the time and doing some barely marginally safer T3C farming.. eh
[17:50] <eustise> don't know, personally i wouldn't worry about it, especially if said tractor bonus will go away
[17:53] <noxisia> if the tractor goes, ofc. If not; I'm not terribly worried but it did seem like an anomaly. And compared to a rattle the safety doesn't seem marginal.. like I said - there are more efficient fits but for day tripping, solo work in other holes in smaller corps I could see it becoming a thing
[17:54] <rowells> well, at pretty much any point, the dude will have a wreck next to/near him and be well within range of tackle
[17:55] <rowells> and with agility for nulli getting the nerf theres more time to catch him
[17:56] <ccp_fozzie> We're putting some thought into your concerns with the tractor bonus @noxisia. Seems like removing it would be an option to at least consider
[17:56] <noxisia> ty
[18:14] <noxisia> just walking through the math on a tengu that can run c3s: Tengu 150 mil, 40milx5 = 200. (350 mil). Thuker cap batter 65 mil, Pith c-type em ward 12 mil, B-type large shield 50 mil, T2 extender rig x2 = 40mil. safeguard rig t2 3mil. Rest of the T2 modules and ammo? Lets call it 40mil. 350 (ship)+ 127 (bling) + 83 for rigs/modules/ammo = 560 mil.
[18:14] <noxisia> as prices stand now
[18:15] <noxisia> I swagged on the subs (just called them 40 mil a pop)
[18:15] <noxisia> A rattle is 538 mil for the hull.
[18:36] <exooki> in relation to the t3C logi question, some feedback I got from several groups was speed will be an importanct decision factor for them
[18:36] <exooki> if they can be as fast ( or "close enough") theyll completely eclipse scimitars and oneiroses in current form
[18:37] <exooki> with better tank, and better neut resistance
[18:38] <noxisia> I've tried to MWD some fits; with the way their bonuses are set up even w/the loki speed sub or the Overheating sub - they're about 500 m/s slower out of the gate and 800-1.2km slower overheated
[18:38] <noxisia> unless you absolutely thrash the tank or cap life
[18:39] <noxisia> and the 100mn fit is slower than the MWD fit when I tried it on SISI
[18:39] <noxisia> In case anyone was curious
[18:40] <exooki> might take care of itself then
[19:13] <rowells> Not to change the topic, but why did we remove the 10% AB bonus from the proteus?
[19:14] <rowells> It's currently the only one missing the bonus and only has cap consumption in return
[19:20] <ccp_fozzie> largely because it doesn't have an AB speed bonus as an option now
[19:21] <ccp_fozzie> so it wasn't a question of removing, it was a question of adding or not
[19:24] <rowells> Oh damn that's right.
[19:26] <rowells> Looking at the speed differences for the Loki/legion/proteus it might be necessary to add it in even if it's reduced
[19:27] <rowells> I gotta get back into pyfa then to be sure, but iirc the gap between similar fit proteus and legion got enourmous
[19:27] <noxisia> @noxisia uploaded a file: Passive Tengu https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/files/noxisia/F5ZP0G51N/image.png
[19:27] <noxisia> Are we going to do anything about the regen on the tengu?
[19:29] <rowells> Also, @ccp_fozzie I recall there being a forum/Reddit for keeping up some of the discussion topics for the capital changes and such, is there a reason those haven't been done in a while?
[19:30] <noxisia> bear with me here - this is t2 fit. I can get 437 hp/s top end. At 33% shield I should hit 2.5x peak regen. if my lowest resist is 65% then I'm mitigating 2/3 of damage so mulitply by the inverse (i'm tanking 5/3 damage). 437 x 2.5 x(5/3) = 1820 peak dps tank
[19:31] <noxisia> I can remove 1/2 - 3/4 of the tank and still run c3s. I can run c4s like this but unbelievably slow (not worth it obviously, but doable).
[19:32] <noxisia> Again, I'm kinda swagging the math on this but if it's correct it also means the RR tengu fits I posted earlier have a 350 dps tank just from regen.
[19:32] <noxisia> And I'm beating up the tengu but I'm sure the loki is similar
[19:32] <noxisia> in fact if you can get more lows for those relays probably better
[19:34] <ccp_fozzie> @rowells yeah I need to get the thread moved over to the new forums and update it
[19:34] <ccp_fozzie> @noxisia good point, I'll take a look
[19:36] <noxisia> @noxisia uploaded a file: You can get even more tank capless https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/files/noxisia/F617X3X1U/image.png
[19:36] <noxisia> thanks!
[19:51] <ccp_fozzie> pretty sure that the recharge time listed in ghost fitting is peak recharge
[19:52] <ccp_fozzie> just checking to make sure I'm correct about that
[19:52] <ccp_fozzie> if so then you'd need to remove the 2.5x from your calculations
[19:53] <noxisia> alright, one sec
[19:54] <noxisia> so it's about 900dps - 12k
[19:54] <noxisia> 1.2k
[19:54] <noxisia> which is what you could get before in a tengu
[21:21] <ccp_fozzie> Hey folks, here's what we're thinking about for the next pass on the stats:
[21:22] <ccp_fozzie> • Small base hull mass, speed and agility tweaks: generally closing the gap in mass between the ships and buffing the Tengu agility, also small agility buffs to the Legion and Loki
[21:22] <ccp_fozzie> • Adding a bit more base armor and hull for the Tengu
[21:22] <ccp_fozzie> • Slight nerf to shield recharge times
[21:22] <ccp_fozzie> • Replacing the Covert Reconfig tractor beam bonus with a 7.5% local rep heat benefits bonus
[21:22] <ccp_fozzie> • Adding 10% warp speed per level to the Nullification subs
[21:22] <ccp_fozzie> • Changing the speed/agility Propulsion to be 5% agility/5% speed for the Legion and Loki and 7.5% agility/3% speed for the Proteus and Tengu
[21:22] <ccp_fozzie> • Reducing the Reactor Core sub energy warfare resistance bonus to 3% per level
[21:22] <ccp_fozzie> • Change the remote rep range and cap bonuses on the Support subs to apply to all sizes of reps (the fitting cost reduction still only applies to mediums)
[21:22] <ccp_fozzie> • Add 25mbit drones to the Tengu support sub
[21:22] <ccp_fozzie> • Increasing the drone bays of the Legion and Proteus drone subs to 200/250m3 respectively
[21:22] <ccp_fozzie> • +20 CPU for the Proteus drone sub
[21:22] <ccp_fozzie> • Swapping the 17.5% damage bonus on the Loki projectile sub for 10% damage 4% rof per level
[21:23] <ccp_fozzie> The Tengu would be getting about 10% better agility compared to the current draft, which should help a little bit with a number of uses
[21:24] <ccp_fozzie> With the Tengu agility, covert sub rep heat bonus and nullification warp speed all being helpful for HK fits
[21:33] <lanyaie> This 10% bonus to warp speed would put the ws on par with the chassis optimization, right?
[21:34] <ccp_fozzie> the chassis optimization would get base speed instead
[21:34] <ccp_fozzie> and the warp speed would be moved over to the nullification subs
[21:35] <ccp_fozzie> I won't rule out adding some other things to help 100mn fits in the future @sturm_gewehr, but at the very least the tengu agility changes and base speed on the chassis optimization subs should open up some options there
[21:37] <sturm_gewehr> Now I have to start all over again lol.
[21:37] <noxisia> I like the changes and I think the heat bonus is nice for the covert ops sub whether it's HK, PVE, or flying solo in a wormhole
[21:38] <sturm_gewehr> Was in the middle of doing stat comparisons.
[21:38] <sturm_gewehr> But now I need to see what changes.
[21:39] <sturm_gewehr> @ccp_fozzie thoughts on active tank pvp fits losing 5-6k/30% ish ehp?
[21:39] <sturm_gewehr> Also applies to a lot of pve fits I am sure.
[21:40] <exooki> what was the thought behind the change to loki damage?
[21:40] <sturm_gewehr> The fear being 15k ehp versus 21k ehp with sig increase and mobility loss puts you in a rough place for dealing with alpha.
[21:41] <sturm_gewehr> Iirc some pve sites can be nasty at warp in as well.
[21:41] <ccp_fozzie> @sturm_gewehr the ships as a whole are losing ehp in all the versions of these changes, we might be able to add a bit more to the active reps subs but it won't be as high as pre-patch
[21:41] <lanyaie> I'm presuming the changes to the loki damage was the raw alpha
[21:41] <ccp_fozzie> @exooki mainly to keep the alpha under control
[21:41] <lanyaie> due to the raw*
[21:42] <sturm_gewehr> 15k versus 21k as an example is a big loss.
[21:42] <sturm_gewehr> Even if it isn't 21k again 15k is really, really low.
[21:42] <exooki> it was underperforming to a sleip even before though
[21:42] <exooki> with even less alpha, theres even less reason to ever use a arty loki
[21:43] <ccp_fozzie> it's still got about the same alpha as a hurricane with the 10/4 bonuses
[21:43] <sturm_gewehr> Especially with sig increases and speed loss making alpha a bigger concern.
[21:44] <sturm_gewehr> Another potential option is if you don't want to increase raw hp too much, add a tiny sig radius decrease to the sub and/or a few % resists.
[21:45] <lanyaie> @exooki even at 10% it's still about 700-800 alpha per gun. Which is an impovement
[21:46] <exooki> well, im comparing it to the other ship that I would be choosing between
[21:46] <sturm_gewehr> Also thank you for adding some drones to the drone subs, proteus imo needs a bit more bay though.
[21:47] <sturm_gewehr> Still only 2.5 flights.
[21:47] <exooki> a sleip has more alpha ( now more than 30% better), better cap, almost the same tank, and better speed
[21:47] <exooki> loki has lower sig, marginally better tank
[21:47] <exooki> currently, theres no real decision here
[21:47] <exooki> not even taking isk and SP costs into account
[21:48] <sturm_gewehr> Loki gets the webs.
[21:48] <white0rchid> Looks good to me, for now, any news on when this will be pushed?
[21:48] <noxisia> split weapon hurts the loki a lot
[21:48] <noxisia> imo
[21:48] <ccp_fozzie> what split weapon?
[21:48] <noxisia> on sisi it has 2 launchers on it - or am I crazy (on the projectile sub)
[21:48] <ccp_fozzie> you mean the utility highs? I can remove the launchers if that makes you feel better :slightly_smiling_face:
[21:49] <noxisia> haah
[21:49] <noxisia> it has 5 turrets compared to the others 6?
[21:49] <exooki> @sturm_gewehr but not far enough that its something your using against most ships your trying to volley, and definately not a worthwhile addition to make it a mainline ship
[21:49] <lanyaie> @exooki well, loki has optimal and tracking
[21:49] <lanyaie> bonuses
[21:49] <ccp_fozzie> two unbonuses launchers isn't split weapons, it's utility highs with a small extra benefit
[21:50] <ccp_fozzie> @noxisia It has stronger damage bonuses to go along with fewer turrets
[21:50] <exooki> @lanyaie true, im not sure the tradeoff is real though
[21:50] <ccp_fozzie> in this case the lower number of turrets is a tool for reducing the fitting penalty of using arty
[21:50] <noxisia> ah
[21:50] <sturm_gewehr> The loki is fine.
[21:50] <white0rchid> I think that one is simply a case of perception @ccp_fozzie
[21:50] <sturm_gewehr> For damage.
[21:50] <exooki> well, the ham loki is
[21:50] <noxisia> I was just looking at the raw dps
[21:50] <white0rchid> 2 utility vs 2 slots that look like they should be used for launchers :joy:
[21:51] <sturm_gewehr> I haven't heard a single complaint about loki damage or highslots.
[21:51] <white0rchid> I'm not fused either way
[21:51] <exooki> i dont think youll see anyone using arty or ac lokis tho
[21:51] <lanyaie> Meh, lokis are all about the webs anyhow.
[21:51] <sturm_gewehr> I don't agree exooki.
[21:51] <exooki> well, post patch, the HAM loki is probably going to become the main DPS ship used in WH space, since the legion is worse now
[21:51] <sturm_gewehr> New loki might be a meta defining ship for small gang, depending on how this stat pass effects it.
[21:52] <sturm_gewehr> @ccp_fozzie any considerations towards moving the AB subs to 1/1 mid/low instead of 2 mids?
[21:53] <sturm_gewehr> Forces some awkward fits like 5 mid legions and loki/tengu with 3 lows where they are used to 4 or 5.
[21:53] <sturm_gewehr> I can provide some examples if that helps.
[21:54] <exooki> the fit layouts will be interesting for sure
[21:54] <ccp_fozzie> well on the legion it's already 1/1
[21:54] <exooki> seeing some 1 low slot tengus
[21:54] <noxisia> yes, slot layouts can be a bit weird on some of the sub combinations
[21:54] <noxisia> I noticed that tengu combo too
[21:54] <sturm_gewehr> In general I dislike the prop subs heavily dictating fits based on slot layout.
[21:55] <sturm_gewehr> Choosing between 2 mids or 2 lows sometimes becomes almost no choice.
[21:55] <exooki> well, the problem with that, is that it lets the prop sub heavily influence tank
[21:56] <ccp_fozzie> hopefully adding some speed to the chassis optimization will give people more options for using those subs if they don't care about warp speed
[21:56] <sturm_gewehr> I will look at the legion again, maybe my eft file was wrong or my memory isn't correct.
[21:56] <rowells> I'll have to look at he Loki again, but the alpha it had previously was just about putting it into usefulness so I'm worried it's new position isn't going to have much merit
[21:57] <sturm_gewehr> I think particularly with loki and tengu, 2 mids or 2 lows really restricts options.
[21:57] <sturm_gewehr> That's a huge difference in fits.
[21:57] <ccp_fozzie> that decision is only on the loki
[21:57] <exooki> could be worse, we could have 0 lows or mid fits XD
[21:58] <rowells> lol that would be interesting
[21:58] <rowells> Painful but interesting
[21:58] <ccp_fozzie> and we went with such a stark difference on the loki largely because of the challenges of supporting both shield and armor fits
[21:58] <rowells> The speed?
[21:58] <ccp_fozzie> I definitely expect most loki armor fits to use the nanofibers sub and most shield fits to use the wake limiter
[22:02] <rowells> Regarding the slot layouts, would it be easier or simpler to do what you did with the base stats? Bake them into the hull and add slots to subs as they are needed? Would at least guarantee a minimum number of necessary slots for every build and not reach some of the odd places we have
[22:02] <sturm_gewehr> I think even a lot of the shield fits would prefer 1 less mid.
[22:02] <sturm_gewehr> For the loki.
[22:04] <exooki> @ccp_fozzie i think the problem is that for the loki, you dont really have a choice
[22:04] <exooki> if im a shield loki i pretty much need the wake limiter, and nanofiber for armor
[22:04] <sullen> @sullen pinned a message to this channel.
[22:04] <sullen> [June 27th, 2017 3:22 PM] ccp_fozzie: • Small base hull mass, speed and agility tweaks: generally closing the gap in mass between the ships and buffing the Tengu agility, also small agility buffs to the Legion and Loki
[22:04] <sullen> • Adding a bit more base armor and hull for the Tengu
[22:04] <sullen> • Slight nerf to shield recharge times
[22:04] <sullen> • Replacing the Covert Reconfig tractor beam bonus with a 7.5% local rep heat benefits bonus
[22:04] <sullen> • Adding 10% warp speed per level to the Nullification subs
[22:04] <sullen> • Changing the speed/agility Propulsion to be 5% agility/5% speed for the Legion and Loki and 7.5% agility/3% speed for the Proteus and Tengu
[22:04] <sullen> • Reducing the Reactor Core sub energy warfare resistance bonus to 3% per level
[22:04] <sullen> • Change the remote rep range and cap bonuses on the Support subs to apply to all sizes of reps (the fitting cost reduction still only applies to mediums)
[22:04] <sullen> • Add 25mbit drones to the Tengu support sub
[22:04] <sullen> • Increasing the drone bays of the Legion and Proteus drone subs to 200/250m3 respectively
[22:05] <sullen> • +20 CPU for the Proteus drone sub
[22:05] <sullen> • Swapping the 17.5% damage bonus on the Loki projectile sub for 10% damage 4% rof per level
[22:05] <sullen> pinned the lated updates fozzie posted if anyone wants to go back and reference
[22:05] <sturm_gewehr> Yeah just checked, only loki is 2 mids or 2 lows, the tengu just greatly benefits the extra low versus mid for most pvp fits witg the fuel catalyst sub.
[22:05] <exooki> which means im forced to choose the sub because of its slot layout necessity, rather than the bonuses the sub gives
[22:05] <ccp_fozzie> @exooki having subs influence slots means it's pretty much impossible to avoid that to some extent
[22:06] <exooki> wuld we consider moving an extra slot to the defensive?
[22:06] <exooki> so maybe the props give less, but defensive more
[22:06] <exooki> for the loki only perhaps
[22:06] <ccp_fozzie> but then you would pick the defensive based on slot layout instead
[22:07] <sturm_gewehr> @ccp_fozzie because the loki doesn't change slots with defense sub like the tengu, you are really restricted in slot layouts.
[22:07] <exooki> oh right, i forgot the defensive was both shield and armor
[22:08] <sturm_gewehr> If you want an ab web armor fit, you can't because you have 3 lows.
[22:09] <sturm_gewehr> And having a lot of mids with webs is already something the huginn can do just fine.
[22:11] <sturm_gewehr> And the augmented reactor versus immobility drivers is also a huge change.
[22:11] <sturm_gewehr> +2/-2.
[22:12] <sturm_gewehr> You go from a loki with 3 lows and 7 mids to 7 lows and 3 mids.
[22:12] <sturm_gewehr> On a minmatar cruiser.
[22:20] <rowells> That stuff aside, a nullified hyperspatial loki is going to be so much damn fun
[22:26] <rowells> Oh one more thing, did the proteus speed get any treatments this round?
[22:29] <ccp_fozzie> increased its speed a little bit, yeah but fairly minor
[22:29] <ccp_fozzie> We'll hold back on the loki alpha change for now, but the rest should be testable on sisi tomorrow
[22:31] <eustise> just want to chime in, extra heat rep bonus is nice for explo, maybe we can pull off things without needing to fly around in 3b x-typed fits now, and we'll get to do more using the bonused warp speed off the nullification system
[22:32] <sturm_gewehr> This is all with the stats as is and not with the changes but right now 500mn intercalculated nanofiber loki aligns 12s faster than 100mn fuel catalyst loki.
[22:33] <sturm_gewehr> While also going 2.7kms faster.
[22:34] <ccp_fozzie> these changes will cause the tengu align to improve and the loki to get a bit worse in those circumstances
[22:35] <sturm_gewehr> The intercalculated getting nerfed on loki, but is 100mn loki align getting worse as well with the fuel catalyst sub?
[22:35] <sturm_gewehr> And do you have an idea on what an unfit (minis 100
[22:54] <sturm_gewehr> @ccp_fozzie consider adding some cpu to the base of the proteus. Maybe 10cpu to hull and 10cpu to the sub.
[22:54] <sturm_gewehr> Had cpu issues with all my proteus fits.
[22:59] <ccp_fozzie> can you send me some of the fits you were finding didn't have enough cpu for examples?
[23:10] <sturm_gewehr> Yes, just need a few minutes.
[23:11] <sturm_gewehr> I will give you fits that aren't compensated for low cpu.
[23:11] <ccp_fozzie> no rush, I'm winding down for today so if you can get me some by tomorrow that's fine
[23:14] <sturm_gewehr> Okay.
[23:23] <sturm_gewehr> And by "issues" I mean fits generally weren't impossible, just had to use a lot of faction, meta, or low cpu equivalent modules (adaptive plating versus energized adaptive) to make things work.