[01:21] <ccp_fozzie> set the channel purpose:Main Channel for the Tactical Destroyer focus group. Remember: Everything said in this channel will be made available to the public.
[04:48] <mikeazariah> joined #tactical-destroyers. Also,@selto_blackjoined,@hoodie-mafiajoined,@forsotjoined.
[05:41] <ccp_fozzie> I've already posted this in the forum thread, but to get us started (since it would be an obvious topic of discussion right away otherwise) we can announce that we're gonna switch T3Ds to T2 level insurance payouts in December
[05:42] <ccp_fozzie> Not the only problem with them, but it's a problem with them we can get out of the way easily
[05:42] <chessur> joined #tactical-destroyers
[05:43] <ccp_fozzie> Once the majority of people have arrived I'll start asking some questions to get us going
[05:43] <selto_black> I'd just like to state that t3d's are the most ewar immune ships I've played with.
[05:44] <ccp_fozzie> specifically because of sharpshooter mode or for other reasons?
[05:44] <hoodie-mafia> He might be referring to the oversized AB variants as well
[05:44] <selto_black> Most specifically the svipul.
[05:46] <selto_black> Neuts don't affect the dual msab fits and by the time it's in neut range the propmod dosent matter.
[05:46] <selto_black> Webs are mitigated by the speed mode of both the fessor and the svipul.(edited)
[05:47] <selto_black> Jams, Td's and damps are mitagate by sharpshooter. Ect.
[05:47] <chessur> Neuts and webs are what kill them
[05:48] <chessur> Sharpshooter mode, while good- gets yoy killed pretty quickly no?
[05:48] <chessur> Yoy have horrible sig / speed in sharpshooter?
[05:48] <selto_black> In pve sharpshooter is generally preferred in my experience.
[05:49] <chessur> You are not wrong on the svip though, far and away best in class
[05:49] <hoodie-mafia> in both armor and shield
[05:49] <chessur> Ohh, i thought we were talking pvp hehe
[05:49] <selto_black> Well in one, applies both, correct?
[05:49] <hoodie-mafia> thats a good point actually, is this discussion mainly focused on pvp?
[05:50] <hoodie-mafia> Or maybe to be more accurate; Tactical destroyers in pvp scenarios
[05:50] <selto_black> I joined this group specifically to see the t3ds pve capabilities remain in a decent place.
[05:51] <forsot> the only Pve uses are c13/WR afaik is their another im not aware of?
[05:51] <chessur> But outside of blitzing lv2 and doing shattered wh
[05:51] <selto_black> I rat in all space.
[05:51] <chessur> What other pve use do you need then for?
[05:51] <selto_black> Ded's, clone hunting, garmur hunting...
[05:52] <selto_black> Lowend null anoms.
[05:52] <ccp_fozzie> More of you will have PVP experience than PVE with them, but I do want to make sure PVE is taken into account
[05:52] <chessur> Good to know
[05:52] <hoodie-mafia> Sounds reasonable
[05:52] <ccp_fozzie> Fun fact: as part of the design process of the medium burner missions, I make sure that I can beat them in a tactical destroyer (it doesn't have to be easy)
[05:53] <selto_black> I should try those then.
[05:53] <selto_black> They are on sisi yes?
[05:54] <ccp_fozzie> yeah, although they're mixed into the normal level 4 mission pool
[05:54] <selto_black> That's fine. I need to try lvl4's with them any way.
[05:56] <hoodie-mafia> I have to admit that outside of a test run in a Wolf Rayet wormhole I have never really considered the T3D as a class for pve. They are such attractive ships for pvp though
[05:57] <selto_black> They are pretty decent for pve when you want to go into high risk places.
[05:58] <selto_black> I can manage 5/10's even.
[05:59] <chessur> Certainly at The 5/10 level, there are more efficient options?
[05:59] <hoodie-mafia> Another Tech 3 ship comes to mind:)
[06:00] <chessur> Indeed :)
[06:00] <selto_black> Eh. Too rich for my blood.
[06:01] <selto_black> Plus I have issues with flying something so blatantly overpowered.
[06:01] <forsot> ya dont you run into issues with tank? i remember back in the day when i did hs deds you couldnt run 4/10s with af because the tank was too high on the faction rat at the end
[06:01] <selto_black> Switch to gleam, refit max dps.
[06:02] <selto_black> My fit gets ?219? Dps with Aurora.
[06:02] <selto_black> I'll have to check after work.
[06:04] <selto_black> I'm not saying its the best for the job of making isk.
[06:05] <selto_black> But for someone who only has 20-30m sp and only min cruiser V its hard to beat.
[06:14] <ccp_logibro> joined #tactical-destroyers
[07:41] <selto_black> eyes channel for more attendees.
[08:55] <johnnytwelvebore> joined #tactical-destroyers
[09:02] <johnnytwelvebore> I don't think the problem is the PVE capabilities to be honest here, the combination of lowish buffer and either moderate damage at range or having to get close to do big damage means that although you can run sites it is a pain to do them quickly. In any case these are T3 ships and they should be solid against a predictable AI opponent.
[09:03] <johnnytwelvebore> I think the PVP issues are what most people are concerned with.
[09:04] <selto_black> Id like to see if we cant solve the pvp issues without killing the pve uses
[09:04] <selto_black> we shall see if we can manage:simple_smile:
[09:05] <ccp_fozzie> Ideally we want to make the ships more fun to fly and provide more opportunities for players to demonstrate skill, while reducing the more troublesome aspects
[09:06] <johnnytwelvebore> To be fair does anyone disagree with the premise that the Svip and to a lesser extent the Confessor are streets ahead of the other two, I would suggest that the other two are broadly fine?
[09:06] <selto_black> HAHAHAHA the sviple is broken
[09:06] <ccp_fozzie> keeping PVE in mind as we consider potential changes is going to be important
[09:07] <selto_black> however its the confessor that really shines in pve because of the massive benifits beams have over artillery
[09:07] <johnnytwelvebore> I was chatting to TF the other day and suggested a longer transition between modes, perhaps also a longer than 10 secs cooldown. Then I was away for a week or so and came back and everyone is all over it:) Guess I can't claim credit for that one now...:)
[09:08] <destoya> joined #tactical-destroyers
[09:08] <selto_black> the 10 seconds seems long enough to me, the switch just needs to happen at the end of the cycle instead of the beginning
[09:09] <johnnytwelvebore> The problem is that they use a unique new mechanic and are in their own unique bracket so balancing that is A) going to be tricky and B) may require unique new contraints.
[09:09] <forsot> rather then make it longer why not flip when it gets applied that way you need to put more for thought?
[09:09] <selto_black> that change will however lead me to lose a couple of confessors to being alphed...
[09:11] <johnnytwelvebore> Exactly, the problem is not that in tank mode they are tanky or fast in prop but that they can switch so rapidly whereas in a normal ship you would have to dock and refit or use a carrier or MTU. That said I actually believe that even the Svip is not overpowered, it just scales well with links and good piloting. We have all killed plenty of mediocre ones.
[09:12] <johnnytwelvebore> If I see a Svip I just make sure I have a Neut and ideally a web or two and bang, dead Svip.
[09:12] <selto_black> You bring up a good point there. I think youre wrong on the svip not being op but its still a good point.
[09:13] <selto_black> Are dual msab svips not as popular as other fits?
[09:14] <johnnytwelvebore> The T3 cruisers have a unique drawback (skill loss), perhaps some sort of unique drawback for the dessies too? I thought maybe a cooldown before you can board another one? Not sure that is even code-able though?
[09:14] <selto_black> eh
[09:14] <selto_black> on a 50mil ship?
[09:15] <johnnytwelvebore> Dual Masb is a one trick pony I think, I wouldnt fly it.
[09:15] <selto_black> whats most popular then in your expierence
[09:15] <selto_black> also what is most powerful?
[09:16] <johnnytwelvebore> There is no such thing as the one best fit, depends on what you're fighting..(edited)
[09:17] <forsot> the t3 desis are in an odd spot since sleeper loot was so cheap a fit one was about 1.5x the cost of an af but adding odd penaltys just just going to make ppl not want to fly them unless they know they are going to get a win same with current t3 cruisers i know a few ppl who hate flying t3 cruisers because of the sp loss
[09:17] <johnnytwelvebore> Before the nerf MSB cap boosted 10mn was ungodly with links. What you couldn't kill you could disengage from. You can still fly that fit but the agility means worse application and overshooting is more of an issue.
[09:18] <selto_black> I refuse to fly t3c for that and other reasons forsot.
[09:19] <selto_black> So what are some of the top tier fits then?
[09:19] <selto_black> is the problem with the svip that it scales too well? or is it the ship itself?
[09:19] <johnnytwelvebore> Well what do you fly? Surely you have a thought on this?
[09:19] <selto_black> My pve fits are vastly different than your pvp fits
[09:20] <forsot> the biggest issue i have seen is they directly force the af out of most areas when the conf and sviple came out we were useing eynos for fighting in a WR but confessors and sviple just stomped on them there was no comparion
[09:20] <selto_black> but when i do pvp its either in a dual sebo arty svip or dual msab mwd svip
[09:20] <johnnytwelvebore> AF rebalancing is probably another subject but I agree they need some loving, I love AF hulls.
[09:21] <selto_black> Muh poor wolf T.T
[09:21] <johnnytwelvebore> Is dual masb/mwd not horrible at range control?
[09:21] <forsot> i would have to go look at my numbers but you could get a comparable sig/speed with close to twice the dps and buffer compairing eynos to confs
[09:22] <selto_black> dosent matter melts face
[09:22] <selto_black> im not saying im good at pvp
[09:22] <forsot> then the sviple came out and WR arty svilpe is king
[09:22] <selto_black> Beam fessor
[09:22] <selto_black> for pve atleast
[09:22] <johnnytwelvebore> Noone would disagree about AFs but we will just have to wait to see what happens there, I'm sure they are on the list for a rethink.(edited)
[09:23] <selto_black> i havent tried arty svip in a wr yet
[09:23] <selto_black> i just know it is absolute shite for ratting due to cycle times
[09:23] <forsot> dat alpha
[09:23] <selto_black> you are either wasting damage on frigs
[09:24] <selto_black> or wasting a second shot on cruisers
[09:24] <selto_black> and the range dictation isnt nearly as nice on a svip
[09:27] <selto_black> i should clarify that.
[09:28] <selto_black> the ability to trade range for dps on the confessor is very good for its pve capabilities. Im also pretty sure it works nicely in pvp too.
[10:23] <scipioartelius> joined #tactical-destroyers
[10:24] <ccp_fozzie> I'm gonna log off for the night, but before I go I'll leave you with one of the better explanations of why we don't want to fall back on "buff AFs" as a solution for oppressive T3Ds. (From one of the best game design resources out there)
[10:24] <ccp_fozzie> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3b3hDvRjJA YouTube Extra Credits Power Creep in Hearthstone - What It Teaches Us About Games - Extra Credits
[10:24] <scipioartelius> o/ will quickly read the history
[10:24] <selto_black> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZnjwdStzUc YouTube Extra Credits Future Proofing Your Design - Looking at Hearthstone and Planning Ahead - Extra Credits
[10:24] <selto_black> the one that comes after that
[10:34] <sfm_hobb3s> joined #tactical-destroyers. Also,@sardcaidjoined,@gorski_carjoined.
[10:39] <ccp_fozzie> joined #tactical-destroyers
[10:39] <ccp_fozzie> set the channel purpose:Main Channel for the Tactical Destroyer focus group
[10:49] <scipioartelius> Nice article on Crossing Zebras Gorski. For others that haven't seen it yet, some thoughts:http://crossingzebras.com/refining-tactical-destroyers/ Tactical destroyers are a problem. You know it, and I know it. Although theyre extremely fun to fly and overall a great addition to the game, those who end up on the business end of a T3D usually dont have much of a chance of coming through with their ship. With that in mind, CCP 
[10:51] <gorski_car> Thanks. I didn't have time to go very indepth on stuff like numbers. Nice coincident that Niden releases it the same day this group started
[10:53] <gorski_car> This picture illustrate some problems with speed on these ships:http://puu.sh/kBn5o/9894278dcc.png(19KB)
[10:56] <forsot> you would get a similar comparison of sigs as well
[10:59] <selto_black> These charts make it appear that the fessor is the broken one.
[10:59] <selto_black> Why is that not the case?
[10:59] <forsot> those speeds dont completly represent end speed of the ship as mass plays into it as well when you have a prop mod
[11:00] <gorski_car> the confessor loses some from armor tank
[11:00] <gorski_car> unless you do active ofc
[11:01] <selto_black> I tend to prefer active tank myself.
[11:02] <gorski_car> svipul also does a shitton more damage due to shield tnak
[11:05] <selto_black> 3mids does limit the gimmick of shield tanked amarr ships.
[11:12] <johndrees> joined #tactical-destroyers. Also,@ascentiorjoined.
[11:13] <johndrees> Hello guys:smiley:
[11:14] <scipioartelius> Hey john
[11:14] <selto_black> 7o
[11:23] <johndrees> So, jumping right in with the conversation I've read so far, I can say that although the numbers in the chart do seem imply that the confessor is the most overpowered t3, I think there is a fairly clear consensus amongst the community that the svipul is actually further out of balance. I would estimate that one of the reasons that this is the case is that although they both rip apart frigates (really their intended purpose) the svipul, much more than the confessor, can engage heavier targets at close range with a solid chance of surviving. This is in part due to the fact that the confessor is heavily capacitor dependant where the svipul is not. A single medium neut represents a hurdle for a confessor where it is much less dangerous for a svipul.
[11:27] <chessur> I feel
[11:28] <chessur> that this conversation this far is just pople throwing out opinions on ships '
[11:28] <chessur> 'gut feelings' if you will
[11:28] <chessur> Would it be a good idea
[11:28] <chessur> for us to create a framework with which to base discussion off?
[11:28] <chessur> Something to the effect of:
[11:28] <chessur> * What are the roles of T3Ds inside the game
[11:28] <ascentior> Obviously that data is very specific and not 'real world' - the table above(edited)
[11:29] <chessur> * How does each T3D bring a unique flavor to that role
[11:29] <chessur> * And how can the mode switch / versatility of the T3D be used still as a concept to fill said role
[11:29] <chessur> I guess with these basic questions, I was just wondering what you guys thought the answer would be
[11:30] <chessur> I think that we need to be arguing from the same basic idea / understanding of the T3D inside eve
[11:30] <chessur> before we worry about their function / stats of fulfilling that role
[11:31] <chessur> I hope that makes sense
[11:34] <johndrees> Ok, that sounds fine.
[11:34] <chessur> Does anyone else have any 'framework' questions
[11:34] <chessur> that we could all talk about, before we start talking about the nuts and bolts of the T3D?
[11:34] <chessur> otherwise i feel like we are shooting in the dark
[11:35] <chessur> Perhaps 'goal setting' would be a better word for it?
[11:35] <ascentior> There should be multiple angles for those roles as well
[11:36] <ascentior> for example, the role of a T3D in FW, is very different to the role of a T3D in null, etc.
[11:36] <chessur> so
[11:36] <chessur> how do you think they differ so much?
[11:37] <gorski_car> because of how FW works where you can force a fight to start at 0
[11:37] <ascentior> Excluding the fact that they are likely to be excluded from small complexes, they are still able to be used in more controlled scenarios
[11:38] <gorski_car> and there are usualyl no ongrid warps in fw
[11:38] <chessur> So, assuming that they are not inside small complex
[11:38] <chessur> and a force start on zero
[11:38] <chessur> deadspace... would there be anything else?
[11:38] <johndrees> Yeah, special rules imposed by the grid and gate mechanics make fw use distinct from average nullsec use.(edited)
[11:39] <johndrees> Maybe more succinctly, it's easier to play defensively in FW because you can force fights to come to you.
[11:40] <chessur> deadspace is nice for on grid separation
[11:40] <chessur> however
[11:40] <chessur> starting at 0
[11:40] <chessur> aspect
[11:40] <chessur> certainly that would be more of a discussion between kiting vs brawling
[11:40] <chessur> not really a T3D problem no?
[11:41] <johndrees> Well there is a significant difference in each t3d starting at 0.
[11:41] <chessur> ohh?
[11:41] <chessur> how so?
[11:42] <ascentior> I'll agree that that is down to fitting.
[11:44] <ascentior> But yes, kiting vs brawling is a significant difference in FW than null sec, but also exacerbated by T3Ds ability to do one while still having a?_decent_?protection against the other
[11:44] <chessur> i am not sure I agree with you
[11:44] <chessur> Could you explain the protection of brawling vs kiting in a T3D?
[11:45] <ascentior> Which way. If you are 10mn T3D you can speed mode your way out of pretty much any brawler's range. If you are Brawl in a T3D you can sniper mode and still hit kiters
[11:45] <johndrees> Well in the sense that at close range you are more likely to have neuts applied to you than if you are kiting. That places extra emphasis on your ship not requiring capacitor as a means to deal damage and tank. Therefore shields, missiles, autocannons have an advantage.
[11:46] <ascentior> Not 100% effective, but more effective than other ships can do the same
[11:46] <chessur> so if you have a 10mn AB
[11:46] <chessur> you can still be brawled down
[11:46] <chessur> can you not?
[11:46] <chessur> an MWD scram / web ship
[11:46] <chessur> can still catch you
[11:47] <johndrees> Well oversized prop mod is maybe a tangent at this point. That is if you want to continue with the idea of a framework for the discussion.
[11:47] <chessur> and most 10mn AB ships don't have the ability to kite / project damage in anyway
[11:47] <chessur> no i do think that we should continue
[11:47] <chessur> coming to a group consensus
[11:47] <chessur> on what T3D's should do
[11:47] <chessur> how they should do it
[11:47] <chessur> and why they should do it with mode switch
[11:47] <chessur> is the core of our conversation imo
[11:47] <chessur> after that is ironed out
[11:48] <chessur> we can then talk about numbers / function of that role in eve
[11:48] <chessur> just IMo
[11:48] <chessur> i could be way off base
[11:50] <ascentior> were you simply asking questions to argue?
[11:50] <chessur> NO
[11:50] <chessur> i was asking questions simply to try and understand where you are coming from
[11:50] <chessur> get in your head so to speak
[11:50] <chessur> the 3 questions I just listed above
[11:50] <chessur> is something that i think should be done by the group
[11:50] <chessur> so that way we are all arguing from the same point about the topic of T3D
[11:51] <gorski_car> 10mn t3ds were able to project and kite before the first nerf pass
[11:51] <gorski_car> they still can but it is a bit less effective
[11:51] <chessur> This was true
[11:55] <ascentior> Added a Plain Text snippet:[Confessor, Brawl] [Confessor, Brawl] Heat Sink II 'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I Damage Control II 400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I 1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner Add Comment Click to expand inline19 lines
[11:56] <ascentior> As an example, the fit listed (In true amarr, cap dependant style) can brawl and still hit things in kite range
[11:57] <selto_black> I stated my headspace.
[11:58] <selto_black> I like that brawl fit though ascentior.
[11:58] <selto_black> I may play test that a bit on sisi tonight.