[01:02] <selto_black> i concur
[01:16] <namamai> There are better ways to reduce the power of active tanks on it (and boost its damage) than reducing fitting flexibility
[01:22] <sardcaid> It all depends on the fitting and attributes after a module swap around
[01:22] <sardcaid> both are fine as long as the attributes are in harmony with the module layout
[01:23] <sardcaid> I agree that 6/2 is really interesting
[01:34] <gorski_car> our fleet Jackdaws each have dual damps and it is really effective
[01:36] <namamai> ^^ One damp each here, but yep.
[01:36] <namamai> (Specifically: MWD, scram, web, damp, invuln, MSE)
[01:36] <namamai> With a few people in TPs.
[01:37] <gorski_car> we have mwd, point, web, damp x2, mse
[02:25] <johndrees> https://youtu.be/zIWPAnN7oDk YouTube John Drees RvB Ganked Fleet #179
[02:25] <johndrees> That's something I've done before as well.
[02:29] <johndrees> I had the fleet use ab for sig tanking
[02:32] <forsot> thats basically how we ran our armor svipls/confs in the WR
[02:32] <forsot> only plated
[02:33] <forsot> [Svipul, WR Svipul] 400mm Steel Plates II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Gyrostabilizer II Imperial Navy Adaptive Nano Plating 1MN Afterburner II Faint Warp Disruptor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I,Targeting Range Dampening Script 280mm Howitzer Artillery II,Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II,Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II,Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium S 280mm Howitzer Artillery II,Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium S Small Ancillary Current Router II Small Ancillary Current Router II Small Trimark Armor Pump II
[02:51] <selto_black> http://puu.sh/kDsc0/8f1d8acda7.jpg(9KB) i give you the state of eve in one picture
[02:54] <scipioartelius> ^^ lol. 3 hours left in my work week and then I'll be right into the discussion
[02:55] <sardcaid> looking forward to it
[03:09] <suitonia> I second that cap penalty on mode switching would be terrible
[03:09] <suitonia> I think a spool up mechanic where you don't immediately get the bonuses would be good
[03:11] <suitonia> I.E instead of instant switch and 10s CD on mode switch, a 3s spool up, then 7s CD afterwards
[03:11] <suitonia> Would require a bit more though and pre planning
[03:13] <suitonia> I also strongly believe that sharpshooter modes on the svipul and confessor would be much more valuable if their respective propulsion modes were not as broken
[03:17] <chessur> Certainly cap can be an elegant solution to the mode switch problem. It also helps to nerf the cap weak svipul. Secondly, it allows for further fitting choices. Do you fit a cap booster to allow for maximum versatility - or try and min max a certain fitting with out one?(edited)
[03:17] <selto_black> How would you guys abuse a 50% velocity bonus to afterburners on the confessor while tweaking its mass and agility so that oversized ab's get the shaft? This imo would be the ideal pve equivalent to the confessor while still getting rid of the broken base speed.(edited)
[03:18] <chessur> I would also like to agree on some of the mode switching bonus. I think sard was tossing the idea around, about defence mode being made for survivability - not the go to brawling mode(edited)
[03:18] <chessur> I really liked that change, provided changes in the other two modes were also made to compensate
[03:19] <selto_black> Yes the svip is mildly cap weak. But how do you balance that with cap independent svipul fits?
[03:31] <chessur> Svipul no longer gets to use dual neuts wirh out xap booster
[03:31] <chessur> And, against other t3d / cruisers that have neuts- it will be dead in the water quite quickly
[03:33] <chessur> Svip in shield setup, would also lose a midslot if you want to have a cap booster- which can weaken the op shield fits
[03:47] <selto_black> I also don't like cap based switching as it penalizes newbros much more than high skill point players based solely on the fact that they simply won't have as much cap, or as fast a cap regen.
[03:48] <chessur> Does everything have to be designed around new players? Cap booster can fix it
[03:49] <chessur> Many ships can have cap issues if you fly them improperly / fit them improperly or have bad skills. Thats eve to me :)
[03:53] <selto_black> If you believe that t3ds should not be flown by new players why are you not petitioning to have their base skill requirements upped?
[03:54] <chessur> Where did i say that? New players can fly them- perhaps not optimally. Perhaps they have to fit a cap booster, but they can certainly fly them.
[03:54] <selto_black> But yes. If a ship takes less than a month to train weapons and the hull it should be balanced for the newer player. 15m sp or so imo.
[03:54] <chessur> Yah and you can get 80+% usefulness out of it
[03:54] <chessur> Or just fit a cap booster
[03:55] <chessur> Numbers would have to be tweaked ofc
[03:56] <selto_black> For pvp I agree with you.
[03:56] <selto_black> Pve on the other hand should not require a cap booster just to use the signature mechanic of the ship.
[03:58] <selto_black> I think a much better option would be to lessen(formerly remove) the "push button Gib stats." Nature of the current iteration of the mechanic.(edited)
[03:58] <selto_black> Give it a delay.
[03:58] <selto_black> That was poorly phrased.
[03:59] <selto_black> There.
[04:08] <selto_black> Bloody mobile PINGS...
[04:09] <selto_black> There. Twas such a nice dream too.
[04:12] <suitonia> You can never escape from eve
[04:14] <chessur> Why is a cap booster bad for pve?
[04:15] <chessur> You dont need a point / web so ypu shouldnhave plenty of mids open
[04:15] <forsot> they are generally poor do to requiring refills so lost time and possibly wh mass(less of an issue in this case)
[04:16] <forsot> also added cost
[04:16] <chessur> But what about returning missions / dropping loot / getting ammo? Certainly additional cap boosters thrown in there would not break them
[04:17] <chessur> And a cap booster would should only be needed if you are aggressively switching modes / under cap pressure
[04:17] <chessur> I dont consider needing to cap boost after a mode seitch something i want
[04:18] <chessur> It would be noticable cap loss, but not that severe
[04:18] <forsot> some cases yes but one case selto made about doing hs or low sec explo you might be a significant distance from where you keep charges especially if you doing an expo
[04:18] <chessur> Buy them from market? Make a fit that has other ways of getting cap? Dont mode switch so much?
[04:19] <chessur> Many ways to remedy this problem
[04:19] <chessur> And if you are doing exploration, then you encounter basically zero rats
[04:19] <chessur> So your cap is going to be quite healthy at all times
[04:19] <forsot> deds
[04:20] <chessur> Return to point one
[04:20] <suitonia> @namamai: EM Link is more powerful than HG Halos + Strong X-Instinct
[04:20] <suitonia> I agree that it is by far the most broken link in the game
[04:21] <suitonia> even though a lot of people don't notice how powerful it is
[04:24] <johnnytwelvebore> There are also mid and low slot passive cap mods if you are pve-ing and dont need tackle mods..
[04:24] <forsot> personally mode switch requiring cap would force a lot of situations into staying in one mode. when i made our WR doctrines i designed them to not require cap to survive do to the nuet heavy environment that w-space is. the same could be said for other areas and i believe it was stated we wanted to avoid making people not want to switch mods
[04:26] <chessur> I think its a poor argument that cap will stop people from switching modes. Real, relevant choices come with mode switch now. Forethought, and risk vs reward.
[04:27] <chessur> If you are so cap scared, fit energy transfer, fit cap booster, mindflood, and other passive cap mods are all open to you in fitting
[04:28] <chessur> Making the argument for cap, helps larger ships combat t3d along with groups of smaller ships possibly overwhelming them with cap pressure and kite vs brawl scinerio. It also will reduce the effectiveness of the svipul shield fits
[04:28] <suitonia> @fintarue: Single web is enough for perfect Rage application to the majority of Frigates in the game
[04:29] <suitonia> Only dual-prop/AB and some ships like Claw have damage mitigation
[04:29] <suitonia> Take it from Kestrel warlord)
[04:30] <suitonia> Maybe your expectations though are from lowsec where most ships are AB fit
[04:30] <destoya> I'd be worried that a cap-based system would favor the jackdaw and svipul too much
[04:30] <destoya> and it would essentially make a cap booster necesarry
[04:31] <destoya> it's trivial for a 400-charge small cap booster to boost back over whatever threshold, especially with capless guns and smaller cap sizes
[04:32] <chessur> Again, in no way would i propose that mode switch nukes your cap so badly that a cap booster is needed. I am proposing that if you want the ability to mode switch every 10 seconds, you are going to feel that. Svipul has weakest cap, and likes to shield fit. How is this buffing them?(edited)
[04:34] <destoya> 2 utility highs for noses, capless guns? Sure it may be worse in artillery fit but cap really isnt a problem for a AC fit
[04:34] <selto_black> The dual msab fit is capless, passive regen fit is capless, buffer fits are capless. In
[04:35] <selto_black> Most use cases for these fits once you are in neut range the passive regen between neutcycles keeps your point on.
[04:35] <destoya> I'd honestly rather encourage changing modes than discourage it to. The mode switching is what makes t3d unique, and in my opinion it's not what makes them overpowered right now
[04:53] <selto_black> Hrm, incoming ewar effectiveness reduction in sharpshooter...
[04:54] <selto_black> Instead of the insane bonuses to base stats.
[05:09] <sardcaid> it's exactly what we're used to
[05:09] <sardcaid> most dogfights fin and I have are AB fits
[05:17] <ascentior> so much reading
[05:18] <ascentior> finally caught up
[05:25] <ascentior> #mode-switching I think that the strength and the fun of T3Ds should come from the modes. The fact that the brawl confessor I had linked has 17k ehp when NOT in tank mode seems a little much for that hull size. Of course, these things are then all screwed up when you add links/implants
[05:28] <namamai> -1 for modes requiring cap to change. The spin-up on changing modes sounds interesting (and we could in theory take it all the way and say "it takes 10 secs to change modes, but at the end of it, you can immediately start another 10sec mode change") but in practice I don't think I'd like playing it. It seems like it'd remove a lot of the quick-twitch play that makes T3Ds interesting compared to T2.
[05:29] <gorski_car> the quick twitch play is sadly sharpshooter, lock target and then defensive mode at the moment
[05:29] <gorski_car> or speed then defensive
[05:30] <ascentior> 23k ehp when in tank mode is high, but not unreasonable nor unassailable.
[05:33] <fintarue> Ya, suitonia, low sec abs are very highly used
[05:42] <ascentior> Regarding the layout of the jackdaw, that discussion seems to be a great example of niche fits that push things to absurd levels. While also hi-lighting the issue of OGB, etc.
[05:45] <ascentior> Having a local active tank like that is ridiculous, the suggested solution seems reasonable, and I think adding base shield HP would help avoid doing the 'prevent edge case, nerfs all other cases more, edge case becomes more prevalent' dance
[06:12] <syenna-celeste> Which just proves the point that defensive mode is too strong for brawling.
[06:12] <syenna-celeste> The earlier suggestion of having sharpshooter convey some kind of damage bonus would alleviate some of that.
[06:15] <chessur> Something simmilar to that thought was suggested before
[06:16] <chessur> I would be a proponent of changing what the 3 modes did, instead of shoe horning most t3d fighting into speed + defense
[06:17] <fintarue> Also, when flying with a group it seems perfectly reasonable to me that not everyone has 2 damps or ewar fit. It's similar to when there were gangs of flycatchers floating around before the t3d were introduced
[06:20] <syenna-celeste> How do you feel about the Hecate's mode bonuses, Chessur?
[06:30] <chessur> i personally enjoy its propulsion mode the best. Unlike the sviple for example its flat mwd bonus really makes this ship deceptively vulnerable inside sxam / web range(edited)
[06:30] <chessur> Like suitonia has highlighted earlier.
[06:30] <johndrees> We should really create a Google doc to keep track of ideas so we stop rediscussing the same things over and over.
[06:31] <chessur> However, there are some things i dont like about it
[06:33] <chessur> I think that for the most part, sniper modes across the board are pretty bland and could use work. Hecate is no exception.
[06:34] <chessur> Lastly, it has a really strange structure bonus while in defense mode. I am not a hufe fan of this, as i feel going all in on armor tank would be better
[06:35] <chessur> Buffer armor or buffer structure fits are kind if 'meh' to me
[06:36] <syenna-celeste> I see that as a safety net for finishing off that one last guy before your active tank holds.
[06:36] <syenna-celeste> Buffer hecates are meh in general.
[06:37] <syenna-celeste> Wouldn't hurt to lose it but you couldn't really give it anything else without unbalancing it. The ship's in a pretty good place so I'm inclined to say leave it.
[06:37] <chessur> I could just see a more unified armor bonus (or perhaps another bonus of some kind) hacing better synergy. Dont get me wrong, i understand thatbhaving a nice structure buffer to help a cracking active armor fit is nice- but there are other options to explore
[06:38] <chessur> Sry for punctuation, on phone trying to type quickly
[06:40] <ascentior> The cap penalty idea for mode switching, as already pointed out, favours less cap dependant ships. In this case, the Svipul will pretty much not see an issue. Confessor already needs to manage cap well, this would mean Confessor needs to be in the right mode at the start of the fight, or it will run dry
[06:41] <ascentior> Short term bonuses for being in the right mode, or any other form of arbitrarily forcing people to switch mode is counter-productive. If you are in the right mode, and your opponent has left you in a position where that continues to be the right mode, then you should not be penalised.
[06:42] <selto_black> As I stated a rep cap usage decrease would synergize wonderfully with pve. Though I'm sure it would break the hecates pvp balance.
[06:43] <syenna-celeste> It would, yes. It's balanced almost entirely on its ability to cap itself out in record time.
[06:44] <chessur> Perhaps, and this is very crazy
[06:44] <chessur> But replacing it with an adaptive armor hardener passive bonus?
[06:45] <chessur> Clearly it would not nearly be as strong as the mod. But allow it to adapt faster?
[06:45] <syenna-celeste> Cycletime on RAH's would fit with the theme of the ship.
[06:45] <selto_black> ... Hmm.
[06:46] <syenna-celeste> Single mod specific though. Could maybe give something like a flat resist bonus to active hardeners? Kind of boring by comparison but it makes it a bit more flexible.
[06:47] <syenna-celeste> Or less boring: Defensive mode gives active hardeners a small omni resistance bonus?
[06:47] <ascentior> Pilots should not be penalised for being in control of the situation. However, moving some bonuses to make sure no one mode can 'do all the things' is important.
[06:48] <syenna-celeste> So an explosive hardener would go from +55% exp to +55% exp + 10% em/therm/kin
[06:48] <syenna-celeste> Thing is we're still giving defensive mode more value and as has been discussed before it's already the go to brawling mode.
[06:49] <syenna-celeste> And we really don't want that.
[06:50] <namamai> Also, elephant in the room: RAH is buggy as fuck-all. Ever seen what it does when faced with 3 damage types?
[06:52] <syenna-celeste> Full disclosure: I've never actually used an RAH. It was kind of dead on arrival imo.
[06:53] <suitonia> RAH has a few weird interactions yeah
[06:54] <suitonia> Chessur bare in mind all T3Ds have the same average capacitor per second iirc
[06:54] <suitonia> So while the svipul has the lowest Base cap
[06:54] <suitonia> It has the best regeneration
[06:55] <suitonia> So Svipul and Jackdaw would benefit
[06:55] <namamai> syenna-celeste: They work predictably if you're facing one or two damage types. Once you start seeing more, their behavior gets unpredictable. (And it's pretty easy to get in that situation -- say, fighting a single opponent who's using hybrids and Valkyries.) They're horribly buggy.
[06:56] <suitonia> Nam it counts each damage tick as a different switch
[06:56] <suitonia> So in the case of hybrids and valks
[06:57] <suitonia> You get hit 5 separate times by pure explosive, then 1-2 times by kinetic thermal split
[06:57] <suitonia> So it will phase more to explosive
[06:58] <suitonia> Even though you are probably taking 3x that explosive Dps in kin and thermal
[06:59] <suitonia> It doesn't trigger from dps, only each damage tick
[06:59] <suitonia> You can fuck someone's Rah a lot with rockets for example
[06:59] <suitonia> You have a drake and a kestrel
[07:00] <suitonia> Drake groups launchers and does pure kinetic
[07:00] <suitonia> Kestrel ungrounded launchers and loads split of thermal / em / explosive
[07:01] <suitonia> And your Rah will end up with lowest resist to kinetic
[07:01] <suitonia> Even though it's by far the highest incoming damage
[07:04] <suitonia> Manipulating RAHs like this happens in AT a lot
[07:05] <namamai> I wish I knew more about nos/neuts tiericide -- it'd guide whether or not I should feel worried about svipul keeping the ability for dual neut fits
[07:05] <suitonia> Also, another fun thing we learned from AT
[07:05] <gorski_car> RAH is sick good vs ppl who dont manipulate it
[07:05] <namamai> My gut instinct is that svipul needs to lose a high, but I don't feel like I have stuff to back that up yet.
[07:05] <suitonia> Damp modules and damp drones are on seperate stacking penalties
[07:06] <syenna-celeste> I sort of want to agree with you nam, but I'm sure there's a more graceful solution.
[07:06] <syenna-celeste> Double utility highs are nice flavour.
[07:06] <syenna-celeste> And a minmatar trademark.
[07:06] <suitonia> I like dual highs for entosis too
[07:07] <suitonia> And for probe launcher and nos for wormhole pvp/pve
[07:07] <suitonia> I think dual neuts comes back to artillery and ac fitting disparity
[07:08] <suitonia> Confessor has to sacrifice a lot for dual nos/neut
[07:08] <suitonia> AC svipul does not
[07:09] <suitonia> But I think it's a projectile balance issue
[07:10] <destoya> Really laser balance too, you try to cram in beams wherever possible because of the better DPS and range. Way more fitting use than 200mm ACs
[07:10] <destoya> I know our confessor fit was incredibly tight
[07:11] <suitonia> Lasers are fine though
[07:11] <destoya> Yeah i agree
[07:12] <suitonia> 280mm IIs take 3x the fittings of 200mm
[07:12] <suitonia> Which is the problem
[07:14] <destoya> I've always liked the tiny fitting use of 125mm's as a unique feature of autocannons, could probably stretch out the differences between 125/150/200 though
[07:16] <selto_black> So is it better to increase the fittings of ac's or decrease the fittings of artys and the room on the svip?
[07:17] <syenna-celeste> The entire weapon system needs a do-over really. Not unlike the hybrid reshuffle a few years ago.
[07:17] <chessur> Agreed on acs, need huge help.
[07:18] <selto_black> please please please please
[07:18] <syenna-celeste> This problem manifests itself in every ship class, although admittedly it's very pronounced w/ the Svipul
[07:18] <syenna-celeste> Sadly it's beyond the scope of this group really.
[07:18] <chessur> I am interested in hearing what ccp would like to hear discussion about in regards to t3d
[07:19] <chessur> I feel like we are sailing on uncharted seas currently
[07:19] <syenna-celeste> Fozzie gave us a vague pointer yesterday but yeah. We're going to grind to a complete halt, or continue in circles, unless we get some hardcore discussion points.
[07:20] <chessur> We could make our own lol. But I hardly think thats worth it
[07:21] <selto_black> I honestly think the svipul is a culmination of artifacts and inherent flaws in other design decisions that formed the perfect storm for an op pwnmachine.(edited)
[07:22] <selto_black> O.o big words.
[07:22] <syenna-celeste> Uhh.. To an extent, yes. But not entirely.
[07:22] <syenna-celeste> The base hull?_is_?very strong.
[07:23] <selto_black> One of the only in vogue Minnie ships to my knowledge.
[07:24] <selto_black> I'd like it to stay at least semi relevant (very biased twords minmatar)
[07:47] <ascentior> Any bonuses to active tank are ultra-specific, and only detract from usability in fleets and add to small/solo. Which seems to go against a few key points we all agree on
[08:08] <johndrees> Hey guys, as a few of us have pointed out, we are repeating conversations. In order to keep things moving forward I have started a google doc to start collecting up ideas.
[08:09] <johndrees> What we have been doing so far is essentially brainstorming which is good
[08:09] <johndrees> So, this is all I have on the doc so far
[08:09] <johndrees> EvE Online T3D Focus Group, brainstorming session ideas so far: Categories: Changing Modes: Changing modes costs capacitor Changing modes builds a timer/fatigue (related to switching) the more it is used Changing modes applies bonuses over time after change. Bonuses applied by mode switches diminish over time. Decreasing overall DPS output when not in targeting mode. Ship stats/bonus/layout: Remove a mid-slot from the Jackdaw and add a low-slot. Remove a high-slot from the Svipul. Changing svipul resistance bonus to an active tanking bonus. Other: Rebalancing projectile weapons. Rebalancing Assault Frigates.
[08:09] <johndrees> So, that didn't quite format perfectly via copy paste lol but I think you guys can read it.
[08:10] <johndrees> Please let me know what ideas I haven't captured on the list
[08:10] <johndrees> We can keep coming up with new ideas until we have what we think is enough and then we can spend some time determining the validity of each idea later.
[08:11] <johndrees> Hopefully this helps us move things along. I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds by just going for it.
[08:12] <johndrees> I'll link the doc soon, google is apparently having a problem lol.
[08:14] <johndrees> https://gyazo.com/4b4b7d9f69a10fe0ee9339b5fa244e43 Gyazo(39KB)
[08:14] <johndrees> Still, not the doc, but google keeps giving me some internal error nonsense so that's what I've got so far.
[08:35] <chessur> I really like this
[08:36] <chessur> I want to sperg out and lay out thoughts for everything. But with out ccp direction, i just dont want waste my / your time reading all of that lol
[08:46] <johndrees> Sweet
[08:57] <ascentior> I'm not sure how you can think that cap usage to change modes will not effect cap hungry ships more than cap-less ships
[08:58] <ascentior> A confessor with MWD, Point and guns active, is going to run out of cap. Forget active tank, forget neuts, forget any other trick up your sleeve. If you then need to change modes, you are reducing the length you can stay in the fight
[08:59] <ascentior> And you think the trade off that svipul might have to switch off it's second neut is equal?
[09:00] <namamai> ^^ ditto for Hecate as well.
[09:00] <ascentior> Cap is already a well documented weakness of the confessor, and it should stay that way, but not be made self-inflicted
[09:03] <sardcaid> I don't think there's an issue documenting and writing out our thoughts@chessur, I'd say do what you're comfortable putting time into
[09:03] <ascentior> Someone already created a document
[09:04] <ascentior> Mentioned scipioartelius' file CCP Focus Group - Tactical Destroyers Document from Google DriveClick to open in GoogleDrive Add Comment
[09:04] <sardcaid> There's no guarantee that CCP will do more than read suggestions we make, regardless of if we all agree on things or otherwise
[09:05] <ascentior> of course
[09:06] <ascentior> but well reasoned discussion is the only thing we can do to try and get the most out of this
[09:06] <sardcaid> I would add that if we start archiving ideas and discussions, that we make sure fozzie knows or we repeat discussions here
[09:06] <sardcaid> For posterity
[09:07] <sardcaid> I dunno@ascentiorI think butting heads like rams sounds fun too!
[09:07] <ascentior> Fozzie a) is logging everything and b) knows how to slack and will check the docs
[09:07] <ascentior> That's my forte:simple_smile:
[09:14] <chessur> @ascentiorobviously changes would need to be made, and a more fleshed out idea of cap for mode switch. I am simply throwing ideas out there. It has become apparent that no one is willing to go anywhere with it, in favor of other fixes. I was going to let it drop
[09:15] <chessur> @sardcaidthen when I get home, i will throw everything on the table- find out what sticks
[09:17] <ascentior> I can see that some sort of penalty for mode switching could be good. Perhaps something like 10 seconds of negative effects from the mode you switched from?
[09:18] <ascentior> Then again, it makes it feel like we're forcing people to min-max and not play the modes
[09:18] <syenna-celeste> Which is the opposite of what we want.
[09:18] <syenna-celeste> (not playing modes that is)
[09:18] <syenna-celeste> And you could achieve the same effect without putting in artificial negatives just by putting a lot more stat weight into each mode.
[09:19] <ascentior> Yeah, that is seeming like the most comfortable solution for us
[09:19] <suitonia> @johndrees: Changing the other T3D propulsion modes to the Hecate propulsion mode
[09:19] <suitonia> I think we discussed this a bit
[09:19] <suitonia> General Consesus is that Confessor/Svipul base speed is OP, Hecate propulsion mode and base speed is really well refined and balanced
[09:20] <suitonia> there is some concern with regard to AB fit confessor PVE fits I guess
[09:20] <suitonia> but aside from that
[09:20] <suitonia> I don't think theres any real objections to the fact that the Svipul/Confessor base speeds are broken in propulsion mode, the hecate propulsion mode is a lot more eloquent and balanced
[09:21] <ascentior> Again, don't forget armor fits. Base speed is one thing. Adding plates and armor rigs makes it a very different thing
[09:21] <suitonia> Yes, in regard to nerfing confessor base speed and lowering mass with prop bonus on propulsion mode
[09:21] <suitonia> 50% reduction in armor plate penalty could be used
[09:21] <suitonia> as a role bonus
[09:22] <suitonia> if plate fits become too bulky
[09:22] <suitonia> just like the armor layering skill but as a role bonus
[09:22] <ascentior> A plated and rigged confessor is 432m/s in prop mode, 828m/s/s with ab on. Which is not a speedy boat
[09:22] <suitonia> that skill is in the game so CCP can easily add it as an atttribute to a ship
[09:22] <suitonia> No, but it's still faster than most combat frigates in the game
[09:22] <syenna-celeste> It isn't slow either given it's plated and rigged with an AB.
[09:22] <suitonia> 432m/s is still faster than a Tormentor
[09:23] <suitonia> for a comparison
[09:23] <suitonia> and thats an unrigged tormentor
[09:23] <sardcaid> It's not slow at all when you consider its matching with combat frigates favorably
[09:23] <ascentior> Yeah, in speed mode though... it should be fast in speed mode
[09:23] <suitonia> what would be wrong if it was 213m/s (hecate speed) but 828m/s with AB on (If you have to give it an AB bonus... I'm not convinced)
[09:24] <ascentior> and with an AB on, it's still slower than a torm, for example
[09:24] <suitonia> no but it matters when comparing MWD fits vs Scram brawl ships
[09:24] <suitonia> i.e. beam kite confessor gets scrammed+webbed by a Frigate
[09:24] <suitonia> then tracks said frigate absolutely perfectly because it has higher base speed
[09:25] <suitonia> with no counter play
[09:25] <suitonia> unlike the slicer for example
[09:25] <suitonia> which will die to an atron due to tracking if it gets on top of it
[09:25] <suitonia> and if it retained AB on speeds, but lower base speeds
[09:26] <ascentior> I see where you're coming from
[09:26] <syenna-celeste> So realitycheck. Yes, losing some AB speed will hurt PvE, but will it make the kind of PvE that's being done with these (WRs and C13s) impossible or otherwise obstructively difficult? Is the PvE that's currently being done sensible and are people on the whole happy with it?
[09:26] <suitonia> there is more dynamic between mwd kite fits and ab brawling fits
[09:26] <suitonia> and cruisers can neut off the ab
[09:26] <suitonia> and then track well
[09:26] <syenna-celeste> Because from a PvP perspective these are all good changes.
[09:26] <suitonia> as more counter
[09:26] <ascentior> Losing AB speed will not only hurt PVE. It restricts options for PVP as well
[09:27] <sardcaid> Here's another question, related to oversized props - should prop mode benefit oversized props, such as a moderate agility bonus with mwd speed?
[09:28] <syenna-celeste> Oversized props need to?_die_?.
[09:28] <sardcaid> Personally I like tying agility to prop mode
[09:28] <suitonia> If you nerf base speed and give lower mass and prop bonus on propulsion mode
[09:28] <suitonia> it will nerf oversized prop
[09:28] <suitonia> because they will gain less from 10mn ab
[09:28] <suitonia> since lower mass means the addittional mass matters more
[09:29] <suitonia> i.e. if you rebalance the prop mode with mass/prop bonus, and lower base speed so that prop on speeds are the same
[09:29] <suitonia> then 10mn ab would be nerfed
[09:29] <ascentior> lowering mass is also a double penalty for plate fits
[09:29] <sardcaid> Right, which makes it questionable with fitting requirements if oversized prop will even remain remotely viable, which I think is a shame
[09:29] <suitonia> Yes, which is why I discussed a 50% reduction in armor plate penalty role bonus
[09:29] <suitonia> for the confessor
[09:30] <suitonia> Yes Sard, the flat line speeds would be reduced
[09:30] <suitonia> but with a 66% agility bonus like hecate
[09:30] <suitonia> you would have more turning speed
[09:30] <suitonia> so it's likely that oversized prop would still be just as viable
[09:30] <suitonia> you would probably have similar speeds when using 10mn ab to mitigate damage
[09:31] <suitonia> just flat line (AKA running away) speed would be lower
[09:31] <sardcaid> I wasn't sure if hecate had agility on prop, that's pretty much what I like and had in mind
[09:31] <ascentior> Why not just have the bonuses applied to 1mn and 5mn?
[09:31] <suitonia> yes, it has 6.00 align with defensive/sharpshooter, 2.00 align with prop mode
[09:31] <sardcaid> Though massive bonuses like 66.6% make me leery
[09:31] <ascentior> Assuming there's no technical issue with that
[09:31] <suitonia> 66.6% is a triple agility bonus
[09:31] <suitonia> because its 1/0.3333
[09:32] <sardcaid> Base agility is fairly butts then?
[09:32] <suitonia> I dont see the problem with that honestly
[09:32] <suitonia> yes
[09:32] <suitonia> nerf them to 6s agility outside prop mode
[09:32] <suitonia> 2s agility in prop mode
[09:32] <suitonia> which is basically instawarp
[09:32] <sardcaid> Yeah, then its fine and adds loads of validation to the mode
[09:32] <suitonia> which is way better for newer players
[09:32] <sardcaid> Agility is a great player skill attribute to play with
[09:32] <suitonia> since the whole instawarp mechanic of switching from speed to sharp/defence at 50% align is weird and unitituative for new players
[09:33] <sardcaid> For small or fast moving ships
[09:33] <ascentior> I don't think it's that weird and unintuitive. The very first time I undocked a Confessor, I thought 'This should make me warp faster' and was right
[09:34] <sardcaid> Uhh
[09:34] <suitonia> It's unnesscarily complex
[09:34] <sardcaid> Mode switch for instawarp is a terrible gimmick
[09:34] <suitonia> why keep it
[09:34] <ascentior> And I think it's things like that, that rewards players for experimenting. Imagine when a new player figures that trick out, they're a bloody genius!
[09:34] <suitonia> its like cloak mwd "trick"
[09:34] <suitonia> there is no skill in using it
[09:34] <sardcaid> Exploit
[09:34] <sardcaid> Oh there's skill
[09:35] <sardcaid> Just does not fit into intent of mechanic or game flavor
[09:35] <suitonia> once you know how the mechanic works its pretty easy to perform both
[09:35] <suitonia> also there is a 5s leeway on cloaking from where you can still activate modules
[09:35] <suitonia> so you don't even need to be "fast"
[09:36] <ascentior> I don't think something has to be difficult to achieve to be rewarding, but if it's a new tactic that you learn either from experienced players or by yourself, you feel more in-the-know
[09:36] <sardcaid> Preaching to the choir here
[09:36] <ascentior> like warping to a plex gate at 10km
[09:37] <syenna-celeste> both cloakywarp and modeswitch warp are really shitty mechanics. but then so's <2seconds to warp just by sitting in propmode.
[09:37] <sardcaid> Agreed
[09:37] <syenna-celeste> Either way you're borderline invulnerable in lowsec.
[09:37] <suitonia> At least <2s warp is easy to understand for new players
[09:37] <syenna-celeste> That doesn't make it a good mechanic.
[09:37] <suitonia> and the agility boost is an interesting game mechanic outside of warping away from camps
[09:38] <suitonia> Ok but you can already warp <2.0s
[09:38] <syenna-celeste> Oh definitely. If it wasn't I'd be saying drop it.
[09:38] <suitonia> it's just contrived
[09:38] <sardcaid> Even in prop mode I feel a dessie should have dessie agility, perhaps superior given the mode choice
[09:38] <suitonia> The hecate feels so much better than the others
[09:38] <suitonia> btw webbed Svipul in prop mode takes 59% of damage from HAMs that Hecate takes
[09:39] <suitonia> to put the power of the prop mode into perspective
[09:39] <syenna-celeste> If we have to bring them to a baseline, the Hecate is that line.
[09:39] <syenna-celeste> It's fucking perfect.
[09:39] <suitonia> almost half damage from cruiser close range missiles
[09:39] <suitonia> I think its stupid
[09:39] <suitonia> that you take less DPS from most cruiser weapons in speed mode
[09:39] <suitonia> than in defence mode
[09:40] <mikeazariah> Mind if I speak up as an observer?
[09:40] <suitonia> Sure
[09:40] <mikeazariah> 2 things
[09:40] <sardcaid> I do, MAKE IT BRIEF
[09:40] <mikeazariah> 1) great google doc ascentior, nic eto have notes in one place
[09:40] <sardcaid> D:<
[09:40] <ascentior> not my doc:disappointed:
[09:41] <ascentior> @scipioartelius:
[09:41] <mikeazariah> 2) maybe one of the items ought to be what you guys think the ship role or purpose of the t3d should be before you design them
[09:41] <mikeazariah> paint the target then shoot at it
[09:41] <mikeazariah> that's it, I am in quiet mode again
[09:41] <ascentior> Yeah, we did kind of blaze past that part of the conversation
[09:42] <sardcaid> Fozzies initial request is in pinned messages
[09:42] <suitonia> CCP Fozzie wants to make the ships more fun to fly while providing more opportunities to demonstrate skill, and reducing the more troublesome aspects of T3Ds.
[09:43] <sardcaid> I agree that everyone writing down goals and ideas would be good starting place, though chatting as now is healthy
[09:43] <suitonia> I think the discussions we had about spool up of mode switching, and balance of specific modes ties into the 'more fun/demonstration of skill' part
[09:44] <scipioartelius> Yeah chatting is healthy. Writing it down will help us focus. Always going to be general chat at the start anyways (and all the way through I'm sure)
[09:44] <suitonia> and the troublesome aspects of T3D are their damage mitigation (Sig, base speed of Svipul/confessor), and some issues with the Svipul in regards to fits with dual neuts being 'too easy'
[09:44] <ascentior> I would say the damage mitigation issue is as pointed above, the fact that speed mode does more than tank mode
[09:45] <suitonia> Ultimately I feel like the role of a Destroyer is to deal high damage, with projection/tracking that really threatens frigates, while being weak to cruisers that can catch them
[09:45] <scipioartelius> ^^^ yeah I agree
[09:46] <syenna-celeste> Pretty much a perfect definition.
[09:49] <ascentior> I think the role of a T3 Destroyer should add another angle to that game play. The ability to get in place to deal that damage, then get out.
[09:49] <ascentior> I LOVE the idea of combat probes and warping around grid. Unfortunately, due to deadspace, we don't get to use it much in FW
[09:51] <johndrees> Good morning o7
[09:51] <syenna-celeste> fintarue's Hecate video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nvftpmw2gQ&feature=youtu.be) demonstrates?_really_?well what T3D gameplay should look like in my head. YouTube Fintarue Fin Episode 4: The Hecate
[09:51] <scipioartelius> Clearly there can be specialised roles that don't fit that (eg. inderdictors, Mayne new T2D) but for a Combat/Attack destroyer it should be the ability to get in and apply high damage and strong against smalls targets but susceptible if caught by Cruisers. At the moment, the ability of the Svipul and Confessor to disengage is OP in that regard
[09:51] <suitonia> I like the Hecate for that reason
[09:52] <suitonia> it has 3.00 align with MWD on (better than dramiel) while going above pack frigate speed, and 2.00 align with prop off, which is exceptional. But once its scrammed it moves like a BC
[09:52] <suitonia> so it can evade fights, and get into them very well, the high agility allows it to slingshot kiters and juke really well, and get in and out really fast
[09:52] <suitonia> but if it gets caught by a cruiser then it's going to have a bad time
[09:52] <namamai> ?*nod*?Ditto for the Jackdaw.
[09:53] <namamai> Huge agility, abysmal speed.
[09:53] <syenna-celeste> And it's beefy enough to eat up the damage from a frigate or three, but not a cruiser with neuts et al.
[09:53] <suitonia> yeah
[09:53] <suitonia> hecate can tank 3 frigates easy
[09:53] <suitonia> but a cruiser with a neut and a web+scram the hecate can never run or mitigate damage from
[09:54] <suitonia> unlike the svipul and confessor
[09:54] <suitonia> the agility is really good too for slingshotting
[09:54] <suitonia> You can easily catch ships like slicers and condors in it
[09:56] <scipioartelius> hey john
[09:56] <hoodie-mafia> Good morning
[09:56] <scipioartelius> hey hoodie
[09:57] <syenna-celeste> Should they make viable line ships? It's a bit of an elephant in the room that we've just created.
[09:58] <syenna-celeste> Plated confessor gangs and massed LML Jackdaws are semi common in today's game after all.
[09:58] <suitonia> Would changing the speed mode effect that gameplay?
[09:58] <suitonia> Most orbit 500 boys are in sharpshooter mode the whole fight, and just go defence mode when they get yellow boxed
[09:59] <namamai> ^^ exactly. AB rail Harpy went all of 600m/s, was still the dominant line frigate for years
[09:59] <scipioartelius> I don't see why changing their speed would affect their fleet capability in the way it's been discussed.
[09:59] <syenna-celeste> I don't think it would make a great difference but the question has to be asked. I can only draw on what my alliance flies in that regard.
[10:00] <suitonia> I'm pretty sure 0.0 alliances only use speed mode when roaming around, or if FC calls for it
[10:01] <suitonia> and the extra agility would actually be a benefit there
[10:01] <suitonia> since it would mean the average line member could catch up better, and move better
[10:01] <johndrees> They can function as fleet ships but they scale poorly due to low ehp compared with other fleet options. Which I think is intentional and balanced.(edited)
[10:01] <suitonia> expecting 100 grunts to do the mode switch mechanic perfectly in TIDI for the instawarp is not realistic for example
[10:02] <suitonia> but 2.0 agility base on prop mode is much better
[10:02] <johndrees> @suitoniaI'll add the mwd idea when I get back to my pc.
[10:02] <johndrees> Any other big ones that I missed?
[10:03] <namamai> gdocs should be back up now, btw
[10:03] <scipioartelius> I'll take a look when I jump on my computer in about 30 min.
[10:05] <suitonia> I think that is the bulk of what has been discussed
[10:12] <johndrees> Ok cool. I thought so as well.
[10:34] <johndrees> @namamaiI'll be sure to link the doc as soon as I'm back to my pc.
[10:37] <selto_black> Gah! this new probe thng on sisi
[10:38] <selto_black> how do i resize my probes?
[10:38] <scipioartelius> :simple_smile:can't you drag from an edge of the sphere anymore in the new interface?
[10:38] <selto_black> im trying and its not working
[10:39] <selto_black> grr
[10:39] <scipioartelius> ok. jumping on to look
[10:40] <selto_black> im trying to get a short video of some confessor pve so you can see how it works...
[10:43] <scipioartelius> Chance Ravinne's video on the new interface sort showed it's a little buggy at the moment, so might be a one off. Just checking now
[10:43] <selto_black> kk
[10:51] <scipioartelius> ok, so hold Alt and then drag one of the probe cones that show in red
[10:51] <scipioartelius> doesn't reposition like Alt normally does
[10:51] <selto_black> Ah!! much better
[11:58] <fintarue> I think making the other t3d speed modes more in line with the Hecate suits well. Like suitonia said, the base speed is horrendously high. I think make the svipul/confessor speed modes similar to the hecate where it only applies to AB/MWD makes sense. The biggest problem I see with that potentially is that even though a ship will have a better tank in defense mode, it's going to get hit that much harder as well.
[11:59] <selto_black> https://youtu.be/TiPIPy-vLIE YouTube Mersaveous Black C13 Site FFS
[11:59] <fintarue> For PvE how often do you use speed mode over defense? I know while running c2 in a confessor/svipul we usually sit in defense because the extra sig radius reduction combined with increased resists worked out better than the extra speed
[11:59] <selto_black> if you wanna see why mwd wouldnt work for c13 check about 6:30
[12:55] <namamai> One thing I should mention about the Jackdaw 5/3 proposal -- it will kill quite a few fits
[12:55] <namamai> LML Jackdaws are pretty much the only T3Ds that can potentially take an option ewar mod.
[12:56] <namamai> (For ex: long point, web, TD, tank)
[12:57] <namamai> If we go to 5/3, then we're basically turning it into a fat Hawk.
[12:57] <namamai> At least 6/2 makes it its own ship.
[12:58] <namamai> That's also the main reason that Jackdaws see use in fleets -- they can spread out a mix of ewar.
[12:59] <namamai> It strikes me that if we're trying to make T3Ds have a better place amongst cruisers/AFs/etc, we probably shouldn't start by making them better, slightly more expensive, easier to train for versions of AFs.