[01:00] <scipioartelius> lol
[01:00] <fintarue> I think that's pretty reasonable. I'd rather not change the dps, I think it suits it perfectly since the really crazy high dps either sacrifice the armor tank, or all tank at all
[01:00] <syenna-celeste> pure gunboats are so much more fun than more drones
[01:00] <johndrees> So if the hecate is ok and the jackdaw isn't that terrible, especially if the mid to lowslot change was made, is that two down two to go in your opinions?
[01:00] <scipioartelius> Yeah, I really love the crazy high DPS too. It's awesome....if you can get to apply it
[01:00] <johndrees> Well that's an opinion syenna, one I happen to agree with lol but yeah.
[01:00] <fintarue> The only other thing I'd like to see across the board is lowered scan res and lock range while in sharp.
[01:00] <fintarue> More lock range than scan res
[01:01] <scipioartelius> john, yes in my view, I think that Hecate and Jackdaw seems a fair bit of agreement. Svipul and Confessor to go
[01:01] <fintarue> I'd like the sniper fits to be forced to consider, not need, but consider a sebo incase of damps. CAuse right now they don't need to at all
[01:01] <johndrees> I'm not sure that scan res bonus is interesting game play anyway. It's intruding into other specialist ships roles as an insta locking ship.
[01:01] <syenna-celeste> I don't see why the scan res bonus is a thing at all, and the lock range bonus is too strong for all of them
[01:02] <fintarue> Instead of scan res, I'd love to see a bigger increase in ECM resistance
[01:02] <johndrees> That would be pretty killer.
[01:02] <fintarue> That also forces players to consider sharp mode even more if they get jammed
[01:02] <fintarue> Another option for mode switching
[01:02] <fintarue> Lose your tank or speed in order to be able to even fight back
[01:02] <johndrees> Yeah
[01:02] <fintarue> Make a choice
[01:02] <johndrees> It'd be good gameplay.
[01:02] <scipioartelius> yeah that sounds interesting
[01:03] <johndrees> Damnit boys I feel like we are finally making some progress:simple_smile:
[01:03] <fintarue> Now we gotta let the EU guys get ahold of it and chew on it lol
[01:03] <scipioartelius> well, always going to take a couple of days to start to get settled into discussion.
[01:03] <syenna-celeste> wait, we're not in EU anymore?
[01:03] <syenna-celeste> checks clock
[01:03] <syenna-celeste> WELP
[01:03] <fintarue> lolol
[01:04] <fintarue> I look forward to seeing what people say about the chat logs. And now this is totally turning meta cause I'm talking about their responses to the chat logs
[01:04] <fintarue> How's that readers!
[01:04] <johndrees> I'm sure they will catch up and have lots to say in the morning. I'll make sure to add the mwd thing and the eccm thing to the Google doc list.
[01:04] <johndrees> Can they read the chats now?
[01:05] <fintarue> I think Fozzie said something about trying to get them out over the weekend
[01:05] <johndrees> If so, Hi MOM! o/
[01:05] <fintarue> and then working on automating it
[01:05] <johndrees> Uhh, livestream the chat?
[01:05] <johndrees> Just for fun until he does that?
[01:05] <syenna-celeste> Probably a daily logs post.
[01:05] <fintarue> lol I could just set my stream on dessie chat lol
[01:06] <johndrees> Yeah
[01:06] <johndrees> That doesn't allow anyone to go back but if they wanted they could follow along.
[01:06] <scipioartelius> A daily logs post would be good. Having been pretty busy at the end of this week at work, I know I've struggled a touch to keep up until the weekend. Going to be near impossible for others outside the group
[01:07] <fintarue> Ya, my corp just swapped to slack, and I found out that my iphone4 can't use it lol
[01:07] <fintarue> So I hafta wait til I get home to get in on this
[01:07] <johndrees> We are going to have our summary of ideas posted a few times in here and maybe to reddit or something as well.
[01:07] <johndrees> Hopefully that will help.
[01:08] <scipioartelius> Fozzie may well be right that the people probably most interested in reading the logs are already in the group, but still good to consider the people outside and how best to deliver the information for them. I imagine some people like Asher and a few others would probably like to consider the discussion in terms of their specific uses
[01:10] <johndrees> Well there isn't a huge incentive to keep track of the discussion if you're not in it, after all CCP is going to make the actual changes to their game. I can picture the brainstorming we do being pretty frustrating to watch from the outside.
[01:10] <scipioartelius> yes, I agree. Summaries will be helpful though
[01:10] <selto_black> You know whats fun? Being able to pve in groups and have everyone feel like they are contributing. I feel that if we can get TD3's in the hands of newbros and point them at manageable targets they could be a powerful retention tool.
[01:10] <fintarue> I'm enjoying the hell out of this so far
[01:11] <fintarue> This is as much fun as chatting with rise about the recon rebalances before they happened
[01:11] <scipioartelius> :simple_smile:
[01:14] <selto_black> I would also like to +1 the passive daw from the pve side. (the -1mid +1 low suggestion):simple_smile:
[01:15] <selto_black> any who off to the gym with me, ill be around on my phone if you need me.
[01:15] <johndrees> Agreed, I am having a great time.
[01:15] <fintarue> Yup, I'm off, heading out for the weekend too
[01:15] <fintarue> o7
[01:16] <johndrees> o7
[01:16] <selto_black> 7o
[01:46] <scipioartelius> o7
[02:59] <johndrees> I added a couple of the recently discussed ideas to the list.
[03:04] <scipioartelius> are we still using the same initial doc I linked, or a new one?
[03:04] <selto_black> i think there are two now
[03:05] <scipioartelius> ah ok
[03:05] <scipioartelius> can you link the new one?
[03:05] <scipioartelius> having two will be confusing. Better to keep in one
[03:05] <johndrees> The new one is in general chat.
[03:06] <johndrees> Anyone can edit so don't spread it around lol.
[03:06] <scipioartelius> ok
[03:28] <johndrees> Forgot one. Fixed it.
[03:28] <forsot> you know when this gets posted....
[03:31] <johndrees> What?
[03:31] <forsot> everyone will have that link
[03:32] <johndrees> Yeah, it's a back up link. I'll probably delete it.
[03:32] <johndrees> I didn't feel like collecting emails.
[03:39] <mikeazariah> can you add the 'killer of frigs, vulnerable to cruisers'
[03:47] <johndrees> Of course
[03:48] <selto_black> with t3ds are being removed from smalls. is that gonna nuke their use case?
[03:49] <johndrees> No
[03:49] <scipioartelius> not really. It will hopefully open the door a bit again for AFs, but shouldn't affect viability of T3D in the slightest
[03:49] <johndrees> https://gyazo.com/994bc58d8c9429ae899d2bb7ba364004 Gyazo(58KB)
[03:49] <johndrees> There, added it.
[03:54] <johndrees> So, I know that we're not discussing AF in here as a goal but how fun would it be if they made Assault frigates the frigate equivalent of Attack battlecruisers. As in, they would be pretty lightweight but use medium sized weapons.
[03:54] <johndrees> Probably have some model problems actually placing the guns but lol, i think it'd be fun.
[03:57] <mikeazariah> hardest thing you guys will encounter is domain creep. where discussing on thing makes you want to fix five other things. Links, AF's, Guns, Ewar . . . etc
[03:58] <mikeazariah> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Svm8xc1z8 YouTube AMCCAustralia Stay On Target
[04:09] <johndrees> well, I know, I was mostly just teasing but I agree.
[04:23] <johndrees> @ccp_fozzie: Here is my response from the first questions you proposed. Hope I'm not waking you up with a ping.https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_ieer_0n7rdoM6yvdEQBuYjIVh74z4wGDkgNdl4Av2Y/edit?usp=sharing
[04:23] <johndrees> https://gyazo.com/24cbffbd8a6a632a3b8fddc5051c1b59 Gyazo(75KB)
[04:23] <selto_black> Someone leaked the image to reddit...
[04:23] <johndrees> Yeah, I have an alliance mate...
[04:23] <johndrees> I think he deleted it for me.
[04:24] <selto_black> he did.
[04:24] <selto_black> still its out in the wild now
[04:24] <johndrees> Anyway, there is a picture of the google doc I just linked.
[04:26] <johndrees> Thoughts?
[04:26] <johndrees> The whole chat is supposed to be public tomorrow anyway right? So, hopefully the "leak" isn't all that big of a problem.(edited)
[04:29] <johndrees> I actually was of the impression that people would be watching the chat happen live if they wanted to.
[04:29] <scipioartelius> looks good
[04:48] <suitonia> Instalocking is mostly a problem with Remote Sensor Boosters rather than local ones
[04:49] <suitonia> I killed plenty of triple sensor booster svipuls in Interceptors
[04:49] <suitonia> Remote Sensor Boosters are broken though because they essentially bypass this mechanical weakness
[04:49] <suitonia> and you just fit 5x rsb on some trash fit heron/griffin
[04:51] <suitonia> a topic for another discussion though perhaps
[04:51] <suitonia> @johnnytwelvebore: Changing the Svipul speed mode to hecate speed mode would faciltate this
[04:52] <suitonia> since speed mode is bigger tracking increase vs almost every small ship in the game than sharpshooter
[04:52] <suitonia> so why ever swap into sharpshooter if you are kiting, even if you get caught
[04:52] <suitonia> but if mwd off speeds were bad, then you would swap to sharpshooter if caught, or defence
[04:58] <suitonia> I think it would be better to wait until the full chat is released
[04:58] <suitonia> before making that public
[04:58] <johndrees> Read general
[04:59] <suitonia> ah cool
[04:59] <scipioartelius> My understanding is everything in this channel will be released public. Not our working document as such unless leaked, but I don't have any problem with the doc being released either
[04:59] <johndrees> Well technically it's a picture of a doc.
[04:59] <suitonia> I think the problem with the document is that people will pigeon hole hard on it
[04:59] <johndrees> Which, I'd be happy to share as well whenever we want.
[05:00] <suitonia> without having the needed context
[05:00] <suitonia> and there will just be a bunch of shiteaters on reddit
[05:00] <johndrees> Yeah, that's why it makes sense to release around the same time as the logs.
[05:00] <suitonia> (as there always is)
[05:00] <johndrees> Yeah
[05:00] <suitonia> OMG WHY NO DISCUSSING OF T3D IN FLEETS ON THAT DOCUMENT
[05:00] <suitonia> even though we discussed that here
[05:00] <suitonia> for example
[05:01] <johndrees> Indeed.
[05:03] <johndrees> Let the churners churn baby. Can't make everyone happy. It's pretty obvious everyone in here is doing their best to improve the t3d and their balance overall. With context or not you'll always have people being negative. I think we're all in agreement we wait but once the logs are out then I don't see any reason we can't have fun with it and chat with the more reasonable people out there on reddit or other places.
[05:03] <suitonia> Oh for sure
[05:04] <suitonia> If you are reading this you've found the super secret message, email Gorski Car with the Code ECMHOOKBILL for a Free PLEX
[05:04] <johndrees> Ha
[05:05] <scipioartelius> Given in particular Asher's thread on Reddit, I think we should explicitly consider it somewhere in the document. His concerns are valid, so it's worth ensuring that our discussions on that are included. He (and others) and others, might disagree, but that's also great if there is something there that is easy to refer to
[05:06] <suitonia> Even if the Focus Group was a small gang circlejerk (Which I personally believe there has been plenty of consideration for PVE, wormhole uses and 0.0 fleet doctrines, Namamai in particular who is part of GoonSwarm theorycrafting and shun a lot of light there for example)
[05:06] <suitonia> It's not like CCP aren't reading the F&I forums and reddit
[05:06] <suitonia> so you can always have your say
[05:06] <suitonia> if you disagree with the consensus of the focus group
[05:06] <johndrees> from what I read the primary concern was that we're all solo/at pilots and so we don't care about, understand, or appreciate other aspects we may not participate in as often.
[05:07] <scipioartelius> yes, my reading of it too
[05:08] <scipioartelius> I don't necessarily agree, but I think it's valid for him to question that.
[05:09] <johndrees> I think that's a concern simply based on only seeing each individual as their most common aspect. Just because I do solo doesn't mean I don't also FC fleets occasionally. So, pigeonholing of the individuals probably not based on all that much research into each of us.
[05:09] <scipioartelius> same
[05:09] <suitonia> The problem with Fleets is that it's hard to find someone who is knowledgeable about fits while still taking part in that playstyle because the majority of players often don't understand, it's mostly the theorycrafters and FCs
[05:09] <suitonia> Like Namamai for example
[05:10] <suitonia> Does the average Orbit 500 Grunt in a Harpy understand why the ship is strong
[05:10] <suitonia> or does he fly it because he is told to and gets SRP for it
[05:12] <johndrees> Right.
[05:16] <sardcaid> I don't see the need for a sensor resolution bonus on sharp shooter, period
[05:17] <sardcaid> I think it'd be an interesting addition to a sharpshooter mode for a bc /bs
[05:17] <sardcaid> not a destroyer
[05:17] <sardcaid> and not at +100% scan resolution
[05:20] <sardcaid> Since we're in high agreement on the hecate propulsion mode, I also question the correctness of the Hecate or any destroyer having 2 second align in propulsion mode
[05:21] <gorski_car> well you can get instant warps by swapping modes with the others
[05:21] <sardcaid> We're in agreement that that 'feature' is flawed
[05:21] <selto_black> i not sure it can be tackled
[05:21] <sardcaid> how do you mean
[05:21] <selto_black> due to how the modes interact
[05:21] <selto_black> as they are nwo
[05:22] <selto_black> *now
[05:22] <sardcaid> well it's very simple, you do away with velocity bonus on the two ships and swap to a MWD bonus
[05:22] <sardcaid> Alternatively you could also deal with this by adding a mode change spool up
[05:22] <selto_black> derp, brain not functioning
[05:23] <selto_black> you are correct
[05:23] <sardcaid> Addressing velocity on mode switch for the confessor / svipul does a lot to better balance the ships to where they are currently interacting with for weapon application, however
[05:23] <sardcaid> Anyway though, I don't think that a destroyer, even in propulsion mode should have anything near i-stabbed interceptor align times
[05:24] <hoodie-mafia> Agreed
[05:24] <sardcaid> At best it should be as good or slightly better as the most agile destroyer of it's race
[05:24] <selto_black> just a flat mwd bonus across the board is uninteresting imo though
[05:24] <sardcaid> for example base align for a sabre, no mods would be ~4.4 sec
[05:24] <sardcaid> well the hecate bonus right now is mwd speed and align
[05:25] <sardcaid> I think align on prop mode is great! just make the base align on the hecate bad, and the buff with prop mode pretty good
[05:25] <sardcaid> for example base align 6 sec, in prop mode for sec
[05:25] <sardcaid> 4 sec*
[05:26] <selto_black> What gameplay is being hindered by the align time on the t3ds?
[05:26] <sardcaid> the ability to catch t3d
[05:26] <selto_black> is it just preventing them being caught by gate camps?
[05:26] <sardcaid> the ability of frigates to out maneuver t3ds
[05:26] <sardcaid> it is
[05:26] <syenna-celeste> Partly that.
[05:26] <sardcaid> preventing them from being caught by other players, yes
[05:26] <syenna-celeste> And it makes facechecking an FW plex with a T3D virtually risk free.
[05:26] <syenna-celeste> Not just your generic gatecamp.
[05:26] <sardcaid> players far away from london will have a very hard time tackling ships with 2 sec align time
[05:27] <sardcaid> it's 'effectively impossible'
[05:27] <sardcaid> due to server ticks
[05:27] <sardcaid> can someone link the google doc for this discussion?
[05:31] <sardcaid> only google doc I'm seeing is john's summary doc
[05:47] <sardcaid> okay
[05:47] <johndrees> @suitoniaI don't think that instalocking being in the game is really a problem. I just think that on the t3d it doesn't provide incentive to mode switch.
[05:48] <sardcaid> well
[05:48] <sardcaid> it really does
[05:48] <selto_black> http://puu.sh/kFlg7/78809843dd.jpg(98KB) not bad for a forlorn hub. i could have warped out, just wanted to see the margin for error
[05:48] <sardcaid> not for good, interesting reasons
[05:48] <sardcaid> it provides very fast initial lock, which you then can swap to defense / prop
[05:49] <johndrees> So, disregard the tracking and optimal bonus, after the engagement has begun, for what reason would you switch back to sharp shooter mode?
[05:50] <sardcaid> regarding the google doc I think it'd be a good idea to make a form that each member can populate with their goal statements, suggestions, reasoning, and then we can go through as a group discussing
[05:51] <sardcaid> for your example, EWAR resistance is the greatest reason, though with 10 second cooldown on mode swaps, unless you need the projection bonus, it's likely that mode swap for sensor resolution is unnecessary
[05:51] <johndrees> Well that's the intention with this doc. Anyone can edit it and when we believe there are enough ideas we can go through and discuss which ones we agree on and which ones we dont.
[05:52] <johndrees> Until there is maybe some further direction from CCP I think we are mostly in brainstorming mode anyway.
[05:52] <sardcaid> My issue is that a normal word doc is not easy to navigate
[05:52] <sardcaid> a spreadsheet with a sheet for each member would be easier to navigate at a glance
[05:53] <johndrees> Go for it, I'll add to it.
[05:53] <sardcaid> can you link the e-o thread for this?
[05:54] <sardcaid> I need a member list
[05:55] <syenna-celeste> @sardcaid:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6084985#post6084985 EVE allows you to discover, explore and dominate an amazing science fiction universe while you fight, trade, form corporations and alliances with other players.
[06:12] <namamai> The grunts are a bit smarter these days than most people suspect. Speaking for Goons, at least, our mainfleet doctrines all include alternate mods and a mobile depot in the cargo hold, and you're expected to have all of them and switch appropriately:simple_smile:But, at the same time, they're counting on theorycrafters to figure out what those mods should be, and what hulls to go for.
[06:13] <namamai> But this is a diversion.
[06:14] <sardcaid> holy crap, the more I work with google docs the more I hate it
[06:14] <namamai> Give me a few seconds to catch up on the last five hours of upscroll -- have been getting dinner.
[06:14] <johndrees> Haha
[06:14] <sardcaid> there's a view snap that I can't get around
[06:14] <johndrees> It can be a little clunky. It is super easy to share though.
[06:14] <sardcaid> yeah
[06:15] <sardcaid> for some god awful reason they included sliders for individual cell contents
[06:15] <johndrees> I think it's possible to import regular excel spreadsheets into Google docs I believe. That might make it easier to create.
[06:15] <sardcaid> maybe the best we can do is a word doc then
[06:16] <sardcaid> maybe
[06:16] <sardcaid> I just want to be able to click on a sheet with someone's name on it and immediately come up with their ideas
[06:16] <sardcaid> instead of having to scroll through 30+ pages of a word doc and CTRL+F to find someone's work
[06:52] <sardcaid> can someone look at that and see what they think?
[06:53] <sardcaid> please don't like that outside of this chat for now, there's no security
[06:53] <sardcaid> link*
[06:54] <sardcaid> formatting is going to be an issue with a spreadsheet, and you need to alt+enter to create returns, but it's a good at a glance way to manage ideas
[06:58] <sardcaid> Once we give the format a go, I can add security to only participants, and we can use that as a launching point for discussion, start tabulating similar ideas and agreement on issues
[06:58] <sardcaid> issues / suggestions
[07:09] <johndrees> Looks pretty legit.
[07:11] <johndrees> I think for easier catch up I'm going to keep the summary list going but I see what you're after with this and I'll contribute to my page if you are ready for this to be used.
[07:11] <sardcaid> sounds good.
[07:12] <sardcaid> I wonder what a good would would be to solicit for gmail logins
[07:13] <sardcaid> I guess general channel would work
[07:13] <sardcaid> I'm assuming only this channel is being made public
[07:16] <sardcaid> john, can you share your email in general?
[07:16] <sardcaid> I'm going to add security now
[07:21] <sardcaid> alright
[07:36] <syenna-celeste> @sardcaid: if you click people's names and choose 'view profile'
[07:37] <syenna-celeste> you can see the email they signed up with
[07:38] <sardcaid> I'm not sure that's their gmail account addy
[07:38] <syenna-celeste> it'll work for me in any case ))
[07:39] <sardcaid> added
[08:03] <johnnytwelvebore> Ok I'm struggling to keep up with the volume here but a quick bit of feedback: Foz has asked us to concentrate on ideas which encourage switching so that's useful. Conversely if there are any ideas here which are clearly not going to happen let us know and we can back off from those directions.
[08:03] <gorski_car> add meee
[08:03] <gorski_car> pmed u my gmail
[08:06] <johnnytwelvebore> Re instalocking Svips - to be honest if you feel you have to gatecamp (and for the record I think this is pretty lame but each to his own) then there are any number of ways to do it and resebos, rigs and sebos allow you to jack up the scan res of most small ships to the level needed for an almost insta lock so I think balancing T3Ds with this in mind may have unwanted repercussions in other areas, for instance sniper mode is great for snagging sneaky FWers on accel gates.
[08:09] <johnnytwelvebore> The use of solely speed mode for arty Svips was also mentioned as a case where mode switching was rare, and it is but only as long as you are flying well and not pressured, if you are caught and scrammed then you are going to need to switch or die quickly. This is just a fact that when the fight is going your way it is easier than if you are heavily pressured by superior numbers (or skill), kiting relies on speed and positioning regardless of hull and again I don't think this is too much of a worry.
[08:13] <sardcaid> ahh forgot you can pm
[08:13] <johnnytwelvebore> I feel that diverting onto the topics of AFs, while a valid point in itself is beyond the scope of this group. No-one wants to see them become more relevant again than me but they will get some love in time and we just have to wait for that.
[08:13] <sardcaid> added
[08:15] <johnnytwelvebore> Lastly, my back is bloody killing me and I'm off biking:) Brb later.
[08:15] <scipioartelius> o7
[08:18] <selto_black> all emails are avalible if you click on the name of the user
[08:19] <selto_black> ah someone already stated that
[08:24] <sardcaid> Added
[08:25] <sardcaid> not all personal emails are gmail accounts
[09:37] <gorski_car> @suitonialol the evm hookbill is legit
[10:33] <johndrees> Good morning fellas.
[10:47] <scipioartelius> hey john
[10:59] <johndrees> @johnnytwelveborewith regard to the ability of other ships and modules to achieve insta locking, that is absolutely not a "problem". The two points that I was making in my response to Fozzie was that the sensor boosting bonus in sharpshooter mode becomes less valuable (with regard to encouraging mode switching) during an actual engagement, where it is likely that you only need to lock a target once. While simultaneously displacing the role of insta-locking roles from some frigates like the hyena/keres or interceptors. Replacing it with a ECCM bonus may help with both of those things and encourages mode switching based on the engagement.
[12:00] <selto_black> check the video and see how often i switch
[12:00] <selto_black> mostly im in sharp shooter
[12:00] <selto_black> also its different for each site
[12:01] <fintarue> Also Syenna, the Hecate feels like what not just the t3d, but a destroyer should be able to do. Even though in that video I'm able to fight a cruiser, it was a stupidly close fight, and I was taking all the damage ever. I think that fits perfectly in line with what to expect for a t3d, where it may be possible, but will be stupidly hard. And I didn't have neut pressure on me in that fight when many other cruisers would have that
[12:02] <selto_black> also im ashamed at how slow i ran this site
[12:02] <fintarue> Something I don't understand, you switched to speed mode but weren't even moving
[12:02] <selto_black> my krabing skills are rusty
[12:03] <selto_black> i should have been in sharpshooter
[12:03] <selto_black> oops
[12:03] <selto_black> but as to why i just sat there, it was where the next spawn was
[12:03] <fintarue> Ya, that's kinda what I mean. When I was running WH, I swapped between sharp and defense, so a MWD bonus wouldn't affect this either way
[12:04] <selto_black> i usually run in speed or sharpshooter
[12:06] <fintarue> To reply to some of the previous suggestions on mode switch. I don't think changing the timers is optimal. Jackdaw and Svipul are already good examples of ships that primarily just stay in speed mode, and increased timers would likely encourage that. If the modes are an issue, it would likely be more pertinent to look at the bonuses given by the modes themselves
[12:07] <fintarue> Also, GJ on almost getting volleyed. I've always found that when it comes to actually tanking, the reduced sig and extra resists does more than the extra speed
[12:07] <fintarue> That was crazy lol blew right through all the layers
[12:07] <selto_black> yeah
[12:08] <selto_black> if my sig was any larger it would have been ding, km
[12:08] <selto_black> or rather loss mail
[12:08] <fintarue> lol
[12:11] <fintarue> This was a fight on stream last night. Again, I think this suits to what the t3d should be like.https://zkillboard.com/kill/49501401/Even though I was able to tank them for ages, They had excellent piloting and were able to exploit the weakness of range control the hecate has. I like that I can hold up well against small frig gangs, but I'm going to take a beating, and any cruisers are likely to mess me up fierce zkillboard.com Hecate | Fintarue | Killmail Fintarue (Rifterlings) lost their Hecate in Tama (The Citadel). Final Blow by Lonestar Shwartz (Rapid Withdrawal) flying in a Svipul. Total Value: 0.00 ISK
[12:12] <scipioartelius> That was the fight where he killed the Incursus and Slasher right? That was pretty epic if it was that one
[12:12] <scipioartelius> actually probably not that fight
[12:12] <fintarue> Even the t2 fit version of that I've found puts up a good, close to even fight against 2-3 frigs at a time. Right now 2-3 frigs beat up most t1 dessies straight out
[12:12] <scipioartelius> ?*you*?
[12:12] <fintarue> It was that fight Scip
[12:12] <scipioartelius> that was great. I was watching the stream
[12:13] <fintarue> Those were some tough fights that were very dependent on pilot skill, I was happy to throw stuff at that gang for those fights. I got em in the end lol
[12:13] <syenna-celeste> i've shamelessly stolen that fit. only kept the a-type admittedly but jesus christ it's so fun
[12:14] <scipioartelius> Yeah I saw your killboard. Cleaned them all up in the end
[12:14] <selto_black> Im training up the hecate as we speak
[12:14] <selto_black> sadly im not rich enough to keep up the habit
[12:15] <fintarue> That rail fit in the vid is also hella fun. I suggest practicing with an eris since it gets all the bonuses in a nice package, but has less tank and defense abilities.
[12:15] <fintarue> That brawling fit does great even t2 fit
[12:15] <fintarue> Use a t2 armor rep instead of an anci
[12:15] <fintarue> Still tanks a good 200ish dps
[12:15] <fintarue> dirt cheap
[12:15] <scipioartelius> I'm also one for not necessarily changing the mode switching mechanics. The mode switching is part of what makes these ships both unique and fun to fly. I really enjoy flying the Hecate even though by comparison to the Svipul and Confessor, it's much more in balance with other ships. The mode switching provides for skill and some really interesting gameplay. I'd hate for that to be lost in this. Better in my view, to adjust the attributes/bonuses and leave the switching as is
[12:16] <scipioartelius> selto, you don't need to dead space or faction fit the Hecate
[12:16] <scipioartelius> T2 works also
[12:16] <syenna-celeste> >Better in my view, to adjust the attributes/bonuses and leave the switching as is +1. You can encourage mode switching and/or punish poor mode choices just by shifting basic stats around.
[12:17] <fintarue> Yup, toss on a normal eanm and t2 rep and it still heats for 250 dps tank. That's plenty for frig gangs of 2-3
[12:17] <johndrees> I actually think this conversation brings up a good point, do we feel that the hecate is the most balanced of the t3d and if so, are similar numbers what the other t3's should strive for?
[12:17] <fintarue> Absolutely the most balanced
[12:17] <scipioartelius> Yes, definitely the most balanced
[12:17] <scipioartelius> and still tonnes of fun to fly
[12:17] <fintarue> It has solid weaknesses in each mode, and you really have to think about how to use the modes
[12:18] <syenna-celeste> And all the modes are useful.
[12:18] <scipioartelius> Given that it fits well, especially in lowsec, it still maintains good stats overall on the killboard
[12:18] <syenna-celeste> It does have "brawl = defense" to an extent but not to the degree that the others do.
[12:18] <fintarue> When not in defense mode it's tank is only slightly better than a t1 dessy, but very solid in defense
[12:18] <scipioartelius> https://zkillboard.com/ship/35683/ zkillboard.com Hecate | Ship Hecate: 46,726 ships destroyed and 9,098 ships lost.
[12:18] <scipioartelius> 83% efficiency for kills and ISK
[12:18] <scipioartelius> so it's not like it is struggling
[12:18] <johndrees> A agree, I think it's the most balanced and it's got some unique and fun aspects to it as well.
[12:19] <fintarue> It scales most appropriately with isk/links as well because of the inherent weaknesses of it
[12:19] <scipioartelius> Yes
[12:19] <fintarue> Links cannot make up for how much it struggles with range or neuts
[12:20] <johndrees> I have flown it as a kiting rail platform to some success in nullsec. So yeah, overall it's in a good spot with cool options.
[12:21] <scipioartelius> Yes, as a 150mm Railgun platform and even with 125mm Railguns it still performs well
[12:21] <fintarue> It snipes very well also, 250 dps out to 80km. While I think that's extreme and something I'd like to see nerfed on fessor/jackdaw/hecate, it's proof that it can do it at the moment
[12:23] <scipioartelius> Yeah. Overall I think in any balance pass, the Hecate and arguably the Jackdaw, don't need anything changed. Jackdaw could probably do with some more DPS, but that's more a missiles issue. Overall the ship is ok
[12:23] <fintarue> I dislike the jackdaw's extreme tanking ability. It's pretty much entirely unbreakable by a hecate
[12:24] <johndrees> Well previously we discussed taking a mid and adding a low which helps both those issues.
[12:24] <johndrees> For the jackdaw.
[12:24] <scipioartelius> Yeah, that's a good idea actually
[12:24] <fintarue> Ya John, I think that also opens up more options in general for players since it allows them to make up either dps or speed which the jackdaw is abysmal with
[12:24] <johndrees> Sutonia brought it up last night and most agreed.
[12:25] <johndrees> I'd certainly be in favor of that.
[12:25] <syenna-celeste> i'm having second thoughts on that.
[12:25] <johndrees> Any reason?
[12:26] <syenna-celeste> having slept on it i think i'd rather see an increase to its existing damage bonus, and/or a change over to the Hecate's propmode.
[12:26] <syenna-celeste> Having the extra mid provides a lot of utility, outside of the small gang setting.
[12:26] <syenna-celeste> (and in it as well for that matter)
[12:26] <johndrees> Well, that's a much less elegant solution in my opinion.
[12:27] <johndrees> 5 mid slots is still a lot of utility.
[12:27] <fintarue> 5 mids isn't enough for utility already? There's only 2 other small ships with that many that I know of, the flycatcher, and the hookbill. Both already known for their prowess in midslot utility
[12:27] <johndrees> Even for fleet work.
[12:28] <fintarue> Forcing people to spread ewar out and to think about their ewar a little more used to a be a staple of fleet support ships. And it's not like the maulus doesn't make up for almost any damp concerns
[12:30] <syenna-celeste> If rockets were less reliant on a web then I'd be inclined to agree.
[12:30] <fintarue> But that's also where the cut would be in the tanking ability on rocket jackdaws. They can still fit a web, and they get the extra low for more damage
[12:30] <johndrees> Well, with 5 mid slots it's still very realistic to fit a scram and web.
[12:31] <scipioartelius> ^^^
[12:31] <fintarue> With that extra low you'll likely see things similar to what people do with the hookbill too
[12:31] <syenna-celeste> So you'd fit scram, web, MWD and a 2 slot tank?
[12:31] <fintarue> And those are very solid frigates with 5 mids
[12:31] <johndrees> Yeah for sure senna.
[12:33] <fintarue> All of the other t3d are forced to sacrifice some dps or utility for tank
[12:33] <fintarue> The jackdaw currently doesn't do that at all. Even with 5 mids it'd still have way more utility potential
[12:34] <syenna-celeste> It doesn't really have any DPS to sacrifice.
[12:34] <fintarue> It won't be though
[12:34] <fintarue> 3 lows
[12:34] <johndrees> It would if it had an addition low slot.
[12:34] <fintarue> means more bcu
[12:34] <fintarue> It'd gain dps
[12:34] <fintarue> rockets with 2 BCU do 300 dps cold, that's faction rockets
[12:34] <johndrees> Tasty
[12:34] <fintarue> That puts it almost even with a well tanked confessor or svipul
[12:35] <syenna-celeste> 280 cold.
[12:35] <syenna-celeste> And that's CN BCUs.
[12:35] <johndrees> Anyway, it's hard for me to see a significant downside to that change.
[12:35] <fintarue> which is 50 more than it gets now by using 2 bcu and no damage control
[12:36] <scipioartelius> the way I see it, the issue around scram/web/mwd/2 slot tank is really an issue mainly for solo pvp. Not to ignore that, because I do a lot of solo pvp too. But I think the small gang/fleet based pvp won't have the same issue because they'll have specific support for any gaps they have in the core of the gang/fleet. So I think the idea of the switch of slots is pretty elegant really. Opens up options for tank/DPS for everyone, while still not excluding the use of the ship solo
[12:37] <fintarue> Syenna, even on a 2 slot tank, I'm looking at close to 20k EHP
[12:37] <johndrees> I'll be honest with you guys, I know the web helps a bit with the damage application but if you're not fighting some afterburner fit frigate it is totally possible to apply reasonable dps with just a scram.
[12:37] <scipioartelius> yes
[12:37] <johndrees> And it remains an option.
[12:38] <fintarue> [Jackdaw, Discussion] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Medium Shield Extender II 5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive Stasis Webifier II Warp Scrambler II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II [Empty Med slot] Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Inferno Rage Rocket [Empty High slot] Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Small Core Defense Field Extender II Small Core Defense Field Extender II
[12:38] <fintarue> Gives 17k EHP cold invuln, and that's before the DC from a 3rd low slot
[12:39] <fintarue> Or say fuckit and put a 3rd bcu on
[12:39] <johndrees> There are lots of nice options and you stop seeing the way way over tanked jackdaws especially in lowsec.
[12:40] <syenna-celeste> I've got a bit of "my baby ;_;" going on with the jackdaw. And actually, yeah, reviewing numbers you've sold me back.
[12:40] <fintarue> One of the first testing videos I did with a jackdaw was face tanking a polarized gank vigilant. 1100 dps. No issue, no links, no crystals, still mwd and scram
[12:42] <fintarue> Just to compare to the most broke of the 4, the double MSE svipul has around 20k ehp, 400 dps, and no web, plus worse range. If that helps give you an idea
[12:42] <syenna-celeste> You can compensate for tracking with autos though.
[12:42] <syenna-celeste> No such luck with rockets.
[12:42] <fintarue> But a TD straight up shuts down AC
[12:43] <fintarue> and rockets will always apply something
[12:43] <fintarue> specially webbed, almost full dps all the time
[12:43] <syenna-celeste> Idk. I'm less worried about it than I had been after toying with it again.
[12:43] <syenna-celeste> (the -1 mid suggestion that is)
[12:44] <selto_black> more lows would allow for a purger fit daw more eaisly
[12:44] <johndrees> :)
[12:44] <johndrees> Hurray!
[12:44] <fintarue> You can also do double BCU and an overdrive which brings cold speed up to 2300 in speed mode
[12:44] <fintarue> That's solid
[12:44] <selto_black> purger fit daw is a scarry thought
[12:44] <fintarue> Right at hecate level
[12:44] <johndrees> CCP quick apply it!
[12:45] <fintarue> with 1 less mid it'll cut that down though selto, so it still wont' be nuts
[12:45] <selto_black> You only have so much pg to fit shield extenders though
[12:45] <selto_black> those extra mids would likely go to tackle and a booster
[12:46] <fintarue> The fit I pasted has enough pg for 1 MSE without needing fitting mods. It can fit a nos/neut easily
[12:46] <selto_black> though im no fitting god
[12:46] <fintarue> So if you wanna go crazy on tank, gotta use an MAPC or ACR
[12:46] <fintarue> Which is good balance
[12:46] <johndrees> Fun fact back when the svipul first came out I used a large shield extender on it :)
[12:46] <fintarue> Yup, 40k ehp go
[12:47] <selto_black> PDS' dont scale well on small ships do they?
[12:47] <scipioartelius> yeah. it was crazy
[12:47] <fintarue> Ya Selto, you get more out of MAPC
[12:47] <fintarue> PDS only gives about 6-7 pg while you get 12 out of a power core
[12:48] <selto_black> i was thinking extra shield amount and regen would help a passive daw
[12:48] <johndrees> The first balance pass was pretty heavy on the svipul and it's still a monster. So, what would make it more average like the hecate?
[12:48] <fintarue> Part of the problem with the svipul, which has been mentioned by a lot of people
[12:48] <syenna-celeste> MWD specific bonus.
[12:48] <selto_black> nuking the base speed on speed mode
[12:48] <fintarue> Is the difference in fitting between arty and AC
[12:48] <syenna-celeste> And unfucked fitting on its weapons.
[12:48] <selto_black> this
[12:48] <fintarue> Arty fit are reasonably well balanced, just a little too fast
[12:48] <fintarue> But AC have too much PG
[12:49] <scipioartelius> Yes, totally
[12:49] <johndrees> Right, arty are already mostly using mwd
[12:49] <fintarue> This is also a reoccuring problem with lots of minnie ships
[12:49] <johndrees> Switching to an mwd bonus in speed mode may help.
[12:49] <fintarue> Many can barely fit AC, and arty you can forget
[12:49] <fintarue> Well, it'd hafta have a much lower base speed like the hecate does
[12:49] <fintarue> Which I'm not opposed to
[12:50] <johndrees> I think it's speed should be left pretty high if not the same as where it is, it's tank should suffer a bit though.
[12:50] <scipioartelius> Lower base speed and MWD bonus
[12:50] <johndrees> Yeah, I think that works.
[12:50] <fintarue> If you wanna leave speed the same, then the tank hasta be changed by either lower it's resists or changing the PG useage for arty/ac
[12:50] <johndrees> It is minmatar after all, gotta go fast :)
[12:50] <fintarue> I agree, and right now minnie kinda sucks at going fast
[12:51] <johndrees> I think lowering the resistances is reasonable.
[12:51] <syenna-celeste> a rethink on the gap between ac and arty pg isn't going to be a bad idea no matter what happens
[12:51] <scipioartelius> It's Minnie, so it'll still have higher base speed than Hecate, but removing the AB bonus makes it a bit more vulnerable when tackled
[12:51] <syenna-celeste> because it isn't t3d limited
[12:51] <selto_black> in speed mode i think the svipul should go about 2.4k
[12:51] <fintarue> That's true Scip, but there's less 10mn AB svipuls than there used to be just because of the mass hit they took
[12:52] <johndrees> Yes I agree that those weapons probably need some work but I'm not sure it's in our official scope to discuss and represents more of a tangent than anything.
[12:52] <johndrees> @selto_blackI fully disagree.
[12:52] <selto_black> Oh?
[12:52] <fintarue> Yes and no, just because it directly has an affect on why the svipul is able to do double MSE
[12:52] <selto_black> As of now it goes 3.2 with my skills
[12:53] <selto_black> with mwd
[12:53] <johndrees> 2800 is the sweet spot.
[12:53] <selto_black> was trying to lowball
[12:53] <johndrees> Lol
[12:54] <fintarue> 10mn AB in speed do 2200 cold no snakes
[12:54] <scipioartelius> https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/archives/tactical-destroyers/p1444438312002034I agree, there are a lot less, but it is still a bit too powerful, whether people fit the 10MN and suffer on the inertia, or they fit 1MN fintarue That's true Scip, but there's less 10mn AB svipuls than there used to be just because of the mass hit they took Oct 10th at 12:51 AM
[12:54] <johndrees> I have really felt a shift in how viable the kiting fits for t3d are since they buffed combat bc effective range. I think that should be considered and is reason to maybe go easy on the nerfing.
[12:55] <fintarue> Ok, let's shift gears a bit on how we think of it, lemme propose something real fast
[12:55] <fintarue> Before the t3d came out there was a huge increase in the use of Interdictors as a style of Assault Destroyer
[12:55] <fintarue> What if we compared speeds to that
[12:55] <fintarue> Those*
[12:56] <fintarue> I believe the sabre does around 2500-2600 with mwd
[12:56] <fintarue> That's reasonable
[12:56] <fintarue> Very
[12:56] <fintarue> It's similar to AF speed, just a tad slower than minnie AF
[12:56] <johndrees> Poor af :(
[12:56] <fintarue> The speeds for the interdictors are great
[12:56] <scipioartelius> My view on how hard to nerf is to take the video posted on Thursday about not perfectly balancing and keep a slight imbalance to encourage people to think about counters. Obviously, that's more CCPs area than mine and not trying to be an amateur game designer. I just think the introduction of the T3D has added a lot of fun to pvp. Would hate to nerf hard and remove the fun they provide. They should still be a desirable ship
[12:57] <johndrees> Agreed
[12:57] <fintarue> I love the t3d they're my favorite class of ship as a whole
[12:57] <johndrees> So would you essentially be in favor of leaving the hecate as is?
[12:57] <fintarue> Ideally? Pretty much
[12:58] <fintarue> I've struggled to think of anything that seems silly on it. Even if you got crazy with links and the tank, it's still easily volleyed and shutdown by even a few small neuts
[12:58] <johndrees> I think so as well. Especially since I think we have not seen the combat BC'S fully return to the meta but they counter the t3d fairly well right now.
[12:58] <syenna-celeste> If the others can be brought into line with the Hecate, yep.
[12:59] <scipioartelius> Hecate, yes leave it as it is. If there was any change, I'd almost suggest dropping the DPS slightly and adding 2 drones for a bit better application at range. Vulnerable DPS because they can be killed, but that's just a "if they have to be changed" suggestion. I personally don't think the Hecate needs a change
[12:59] <syenna-celeste> plz no