[01:08] <syenna-celeste> I agree to an extent. A lesser scan res bonus w/ more sensor strength to accomodate it.
[01:09] <syenna-celeste> Relative to T1 scanres it could very easily be set to slightly below T1 base, and slightly above T1 in sharpshooter.
[01:13] <fintarue> As it stands only the confessor and jackdaw get sig reduction
[01:14] <fintarue> Svipul is MWD sig while in defense
[01:14] <fintarue> which matters pretty much never
[01:14] <fintarue> Since almost anyone running the MWD will just be in speed or likely sharp anyways
[01:15] <fintarue> I like the idea of putting part of the damage bonus on sharpshooter. Really makes people consider those modes at all times, and not just with specific fits kite vs brawl
[01:16] <fintarue> I don't like the spool up on modes though, leave them the same. But dropping the scan res on sharp for a larger Sensor strength increase would also fit with making sharpshooter an assault mode instead of just sniping.
[01:17] <fintarue> And for gate campers, you already see practically insta lock thrashers even before remote sebos. Their scan res would be about the same as a t1 dessy/dictor which I think is perfectly reasonable to expeect
[01:29] <selto_black> What about a rof bonus on the svipul instead of straight damage?
[01:32] <sardcaid> is there a reason to change away from damage?
[01:38] <fintarue> Well svipul damage is already strong, and RoF translates to more dps than straight damage bonus
[01:48] <selto_black> Hrm...
[01:49] <sardcaid> it doesn't have to translate to more dps
[01:49] <sardcaid> question is if you want more alpha or less alpha
[01:49] <sardcaid> I think that the damage from the ship being chunky is fine, and fun
[02:38] <gorski_car> In practice its more dps
[02:40] <fintarue> In numbers, a same damage bonus compared to a same amount rof bonus is more dps
[03:34] <sardcaid> So I'm thinking let's continue the sharpshooter discussion into tomorrow, then pick up on prop mode tomorrow night?
[03:36] <sardcaid> So on sharpshooter mode: What's good? What's bad? Are changes needed? Please be specific, in that if you think one ship's sharpshooter mode is fine and another's isn't, point that out. Also: pitch in thoughts about adding or swapping around damage bonuses to the sharpshooter mode(edited)
[03:36] <sardcaid> Pinned a message.See all pinned items in this channel. sardcaid So I'm thinking let's continue the sharpshooter discussion into tomorrow, then pick up on prop mode tomorrow night? Oct 13th at 3:34 AM
[03:37] <sardcaid> Pinned a message.See all pinned items in this channel. suitonia So to start another discussion Oct 12th at 11:35 PM
[03:38] <chessur> For sharp shooter
[03:38] <chessur> I like the targeting range, and scan resolution bonus dropped into just ECCM. As we have discussed earlier
[03:39] <chessur> I also think that sharpshooter mode is where the full damage of the ship should be located. I suggest that outside of sharpshooter mode
[03:39] <chessur> you have a net 25% drop in DPS, and while in DPS you are ofc at 100%.
[03:41] <chessur> Lastly, I don't think that sharp shooter mode should help with gun optimal range, or tracking. I also think that Some T3D should not be given a range or tracking mode inside of sharp shooter. Instead, I think that it should just roll over into the hull.
[03:42] <chessur> For example:
[03:43] <chessur> Jackdaw should recieve a 15% bonus to rocket velocity. That would put its unmodified jav rockets are around 20K
[03:43] <chessur> current jackdaw outside of sniper mode has LML's out to 47K Before implants / rigs / other missile mods
[03:43] <chessur> I think that this is more than enough, so I would be in great favor of dropping any missile velocity bonus the jackdaw receives
[03:46] <chessur> I personally think that LML's and RLMLs are cancer, so the more we can reduce base shooting range the better
[03:48] <chessur> When it comes to the svipoul
[03:48] <chessur> I think that reducing its raw powergrid to 55pwg (with lv 5 skills) can help immensely
[03:49] <gorski_car> will cause problems due to how shitty the arty fittings are compared to acs
[03:49] <chessur> That way, players would not be able to fit a full rack of arty, mwd, with no fitting mods- and power to space lol. I think that If you do want that type of projection and power, fitting mods should have to be thrown in at some point
[03:49] <chessur> you can still fit an AC svipul just fine even with 55pwg?
[03:49] <chessur> and I was just looking at the number now
[03:49] <gorski_car> yes but not a arty one
[03:49] <gorski_car> and tbh ac svipuls are whats op not arty
[03:49] <chessur> full rack of 280s plus compact mwd
[03:49] <chessur> requires 60grid
[03:49] <chessur> lv 5 skills
[03:50] <chessur> you can use a single aux power core to fit that problem
[03:50] <chessur> I am just suggesting 55grid?
[03:50] <chessur> Perhaps that idea needs more consideration though- you are right:simple_smile:
[03:51] <chessur> As for the svipuls sharp shooter mode
[03:51] <chessur> I think that instead of tracking, it is given a 60% falloff bonus instead. Inside sharp shooter it has 100% of its base DPS, and outside -25%(edited)
[03:51] <chessur> I think that a falloff bonus is more useful to ACs
[03:54] <chessur> and will help take out some of the more oppressive power svipuls currently have over all frigates. Piloting with sniper arty fits will be more important, and there will be room to play around with AC fits now.
[03:55] <chessur> with 60% falloff the svipul will enjoy close to 20K falloff with barrage (before modifiers) at this point I think that there would be some consideration for an AC vs Arty fit
[03:55] <chessur> With the clear advantages this would give the svipul in close range combat, I would also be a fan of removing one of its high slots
[03:55] <chessur> but more discussion on that end would be needed
[04:02] <chessur> As for the confessor: Again, sniper mode- I don't like T3Ds getting the ability to project past 40/50ish max K with out having fits specifically designed to be a sniper. Confessor with 3X locus, beams, and aurora is just over 75K range. It also has the tareting to match that- and at times I almost feel that it still is hitting to hard at that point. 332 heated DPS with my fit.
[04:02] <chessur> I think that the best way to combat this, is dealing with targeting range
[04:03] <chessur> I don't think that combat ready confessors (AAR, DCU, web / point_) should also have the ability to do that type of dps out to 70K just by swtiching modes
[04:03] <chessur> the fix here would be to remove targeting range bonus, and instead just throw it into ECCM.
[04:04] <chessur> With out the targeting range bonus, it has a 56K lock range. Which is around the same targeting range as a slicer / retribution.
[04:06] <chessur> As with the other modes, I also think that outside of sniper mode the confessor would have -25% dps
[04:09] <chessur> Lastly for the hecate
[04:10] <chessur> It has similar issues to the confessor, where it too in normal sniper mode can lock, and hit you out to 125km
[04:12] <chessur> Here again i would like to take away the targeting bonus of the hecate, and simply have base range around 50k to place it more in line. I think that for the hecate an optimal bonus is a good addition to both rail and blaster fits. So i would ideally like to keep this. Again, make ECCM bonus the priority and give DPS -25% while not in sniper mode. I feel that would be the best option here
[04:12] <chessur> Sorry for the wall of text, please let me know how you received / thought about those ideas?
[04:19] <suitonia> So good about sharpshooter: I like the Sensor Strength bonus on it, feels good, feels rewarding to swap to it to kill Griffins
[04:19] <suitonia> I mean, nothing is better than an ECM ship dying
[04:19] <suitonia> But the bonus feels good
[04:20] <suitonia> it's powerful, but not in a gamebreaking sense
[04:23] <gorski_car> Make it stronger thoo
[04:27] <fintarue> Agreed. I see no real reason to keep the scan res bonus. If they wanna gate camp or insta lock, make em use sebos just like a thrasher. Swap the scan res for more sensor strength.
[04:28] <gorski_car> I'm going to go shop cat food
[04:30] <fintarue> I also think a reduction in lock range may be in order, which would mean sniper fits need to use sebos also
[04:53] <selto_black> What's max sniping range on a talwar or corax?
[05:32] <forsot> "current jackdaw outside of sniper mode has LML's out to 47K Before implants / rigs / other missile mods" I would disagree with this as it removes one of the few ships that have a decent tank and application to deal with small gangs that kite at extreme ranges
[05:32] <forsot> its light missles that are the issue not the ship buffs
[05:39] <forsot> also nerfing pg on sviple or confessor would limit effective WR fits as they are vary pg dependant as you need to fit a 400 plate or you might as well bring no tank desis cause it will be an even quicker blap fest then it was before
[05:51] <fintarue> Lml Hitting that far naturally is similar to what the flycatcher do. I use the flycatcher as the baseline for the jackdaw. It beats it in tank, which it should, but has less dps, and far less speed and missile range when not in sharp mode. An lml jackdaw with no rigs/mods/implants hits 42km with faction missiles
[05:53] <fintarue> And as was mentioned earlier, Arty Svipuls aren't as much of an issue aside from the fact they just run speed mode 90% of the time. This is the issue between arty and AC fitting
[05:54] <fintarue> I've really warmed up to the idea of putting damage on the sharp mode. Possibly changing the name to assault instead of sharpshooter.
[05:56] <forsot> ya that sounded like a decent idea as it would encourage mode switching between getting shot and applying more damage
[06:02] <chessur> so people are ok with 72k Jackdaw LML missiles as well?
[06:02] <chessur> and no one sees issue with arty svipul?
[06:05] <forsot> you can do it with kestrels and talwars why not a jackdaw with a little tank?
[06:05] <fintarue> Arty svipul hits out to 50 at most
[06:05] <fintarue> And the damage is poor at that range
[06:05] <forsot> so is the tracking
[06:07] <fintarue> 70km jackdaw isn't as much of an issue because of how god awful slow it is. That of course could change a bit if it went 6/5/3 But my problem isn't 70km on lml since the flycatcher hits out almost there on it's own and it's not instant damage application
[06:07] <fintarue> My problem is the easily done sniper jackdaws that hit 120+ without even needing sensor boosters.
[06:07] <syenna-celeste> Artillery svipuls fit properly are ridiculously strong.
[06:08] <fintarue> For the confessor, to hit out to 70km you hafta do atleast 3 range rigs, and tracking enhancers, and it leaves little room for any decent tank. Is 70km too far for that kind of dps and instant application? Absolutely. I'd prefer to see it closer to 50, which is around where the arty svipul hits to
[06:09] <syenna-celeste> In their current state at least. Forcing them to use fitting mods would be a decent band aid solution short of actually solving the core design issues Artillery/projectiles in general have at all levels.
[06:10] <syenna-celeste> For the Jackdaw: With its current stats the range is okay for an individual ship. It scales very well into gangs but I don't know if that's a bad thing.
[06:11] <fintarue> The double MSE fit that most of agree is completely insane currently needs to fit 1 MAPC to work
[06:11] <fintarue> Has a cool 16k omni tank, but that's basically going off lowest resists
[06:11] <fintarue> Oh excuse
[06:11] <fintarue> 23k omni while in defense mode
[06:12] <fintarue> 16k in sharp/speed
[06:12] <fintarue> If the powergrid dropped enough to force the use of a current router, it still has 20k EHP
[06:12] <syenna-celeste> Added a Plain Text snippet:How do you feel about this then? [Svipul, MiG Svipul] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Vigor Compact Micro Auxiliary Power Core Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive Caldari Navy Medium Shield Extender Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Warp Disruptor II Add Comment Click to expand inline30 lines
[06:12] <fintarue> I'm not sure just dropping it's PG more will do anything besides nerf arty fits even more
[06:12] <forsot> is that a pg issue or it havein to much cpu ?
[06:14] <syenna-celeste> Not sure if that's Brainstraw's fit or not. Chessur will be able to confirm.
[06:14] <syenna-celeste> toomanysavedfit problems.
[06:16] <syenna-celeste> But yes. Svipuls have too much PG, CPU, base speed, base resist - Fuck, you name it, it could probably do with less of it. Not much, but a bit across the board would knock it straight into line.
[06:17] <fintarue> lol
[06:22] <gorski_car> rf gyro kek
[06:22] <syenna-celeste> nopoors
[06:22] <syenna-celeste> ))
[06:22] <gorski_car> would rather do rf point
[06:24] <syenna-celeste> ~100mil difference, not?_quite that_?nopoors.
[06:24] <syenna-celeste> But the effect would be better overall yes.
[06:33] <chessur> that is pretty much the mig svipul
[06:33] <chessur> it is strong as fuck
[06:34] <chessur> the 3X locus rig confessor is pretty standard fitting fyi
[06:34] <chessur> its how amarr ships are fit for the most part
[06:34] <chessur> I don't like ships that have 70K range, 300DPS with small turrets
[06:34] <chessur> and then can also have all of these other bonkers modes on top of it
[06:34] <chessur> nerf targeting range is probably the easiest way to go about it
[06:34] <chessur> slicer for example, has 70K optimal as well
[06:35] <chessur> but only a 50K lock range, which places it well within balance imo
[06:35] <fintarue> I agree. I think many of the sniper fits should have to use a sebo
[06:37] <chessur> yah
[06:37] <chessur> i have no problem with sniper destroyers
[06:37] <hoodie-mafia> Worm is another good example
[06:37] <hoodie-mafia> 30km lock?
[06:37] <chessur> provided they are purpose built for the role
[06:37] <chessur> I think that lock range is an elegant solution to the range issues
[06:37] <chessur> Also about the arty svipul
[06:37] <hoodie-mafia> Its not, but it does seem to help
[06:37] <chessur> currently the strongest T3D by far
[06:38] <chessur> would changing tracking to 35% falloff work instead?
[06:38] <chessur> still helps with arty (tones them down a bit) but also makes AC's much more viable
[06:38] <chessur> 20ish K falloff with barrage
[06:38] <chessur> and small guns is nothing to joke about
[06:38] <hoodie-mafia> I like that actually, gives them a bit of range compared to the fessor
[06:39] <chessur> hell even 50% falloff
[06:39] <chessur> so you have something like 25K falloff before mods
[06:39] <chessur> and barrage
[06:39] <chessur> confessor in sniper mode, with beam lasers
[06:39] <chessur> is doing stupid DPS at that range
[06:39] <chessur> stupid*
[06:39] <hoodie-mafia> Im well aware:)
[06:39] <syenna-celeste> Yes if in conjunction with changes to make it a weaker brawler.
[06:40] <chessur> well to make it a weaker brawler
[06:40] <chessur> you can reduce fitting
[06:40] <chessur> and then take away flat resist
[06:40] <chessur> which we were talking about earlier
[06:40] <chessur> as not being very fun / a good choice
[06:40] <chessur> that and with the loss of their sig reduction in def (which we all agreed was too much)
[06:40] <chessur> that could perhaps bring them in line
[06:42] <syenna-celeste> You said 55 base PG earlier, right?
[06:43] <chessur> yes
[06:43] <syenna-celeste> Would hurt artillery fits (as intended) but I don't see it really neutering autos, unless maybe bonuses are split up a bit more forcing choices (as has been mentioned at other points and that I fully agree with)
[06:43] <chessur> full rack of 280's with compact mwd lv 5 skills is 60pwg
[06:47] <selto_black> That will regulate arty svips to older players due to skill disparities imo. Is that what you want to do considering ac svips are the main concern?
[06:48] <syenna-celeste> Might be a necessary evil.
[06:48] <syenna-celeste> Given the state of artillery.
[06:49] <selto_black> So a recommended change if they don't fix the fitting gaps on proji?
[06:49] <syenna-celeste> We're not here to discuss that and CCP hasn't said anything about plans in that area so we've got to work around iit.
[06:50] <syenna-celeste> So, yes.
[06:51] <chessur> Right now
[06:51] <chessur> arty svipul is the best T3D in the game
[06:51] <chessur> it can easily kill all others
[06:51] <selto_black> Hmm. I wouldn't mind@ccp_fozziechiming in right about now. If that recommendation is off the table then I'm fine with regulating it to older players.
[06:51] <chessur> no other firgate / destroyer has a chance
[06:51] <chessur> brainstraw and wildthings
[06:51] <chessur> have used that device to cause great destruction
[06:53] <fintarue> That also depends heavily upon what/who they're killing. As I mentioned before, the current AC 2xMSE Svipul has 23k EHP and full dps in defense more
[06:53] <fintarue> If they're forced to fit a current router on top, it only drops them around 3k EHP
[06:54] <fintarue> I don't think this is a bad thing, but I think one of the real balancing factors here will be having part of the damage bonus being in Sharp/Assault mode. That forces those same svipuls to choose to way extra tank or full damage
[06:54] <chessur> Yes i agree with that
[06:54] <chessur> and that was the concensu from the group
[06:55] <chessur> I also think that taking out flat resistance bonus of 33%
[06:55] <chessur> is going to go a long way in assisting that problem
[06:55] <fintarue> I think that'll get to the point of hitting them to the point of no appeal.
[06:55] <chessur> lol my confessor does 300 heated DPS out to 80K
[06:56] <chessur> with 3% implant and basic frentix
[06:56] <chessur> hahahah
[06:56] <fintarue> Ya, but that confessor fit is basically 0 tank and not particularly fast
[06:56] <fintarue> Anything that can hit that far out in return is likely to blap you also
[06:56] <chessur> dcu, aar
[06:56] <chessur> and it has a nano
[06:56] <chessur> 2.6 unheated
[06:56] <chessur> with no plants
[06:56] <fintarue> TC in the mid?
[06:57] <chessur> no
[06:57] <chessur> just locus
[06:57] <chessur> web in mid
[06:57] <fintarue> Frentix is nice buff. I always shy away from it cause of it's penalties
[06:57] <chessur> synth
[06:57] <chessur> with st-903
[06:57] <chessur> to give 80K range
[07:00] <namamai> I'm not sure I agree with using lock range as a balancing tool. Didn't work well for the garmur/orthrus.
[07:00] <namamai> Sebos are relatively cheap fitting-wise, as are ionic field rigs.
[07:01] <fintarue> t3d also don't have 60km points.
[07:01] <namamai> If the range is too good on the confessor, then reduce its optimal bonus -- don't give it a huge optimal that it can't use without sebos
[07:01] <namamai> Remember when inties could point out farther than they could lock and everyone thought that was dumb?
[07:01] <syenna-celeste> The garmur is largely okay, and the Orthrus has 10? omni turrets with perfect tracking, and a point bonus.
[07:01] <syenna-celeste> Which is broken.
[07:01] <syenna-celeste> But not a t3d problem.
[07:02] <selto_black> Removing the optimal bonus is a no go IMHO.
[07:02] <selto_black> At least on the fessor.
[07:02] <fintarue> Namamai I think part of the issue isn't so much using the lock range as balance, but just that in sharp you're often looking at a 130km lock range
[07:03] <fintarue> The confessor losing it's optimal would be rough
[07:03] <namamai> My point is that nerfing lockrange hurts all uses of the ship uniformly, whereas nerfing optimal range mainly hurts snipers. For the former, it means using a sebo; for the latter, it means using a TC
[07:03] <chessur> can't remove optimal
[07:03] <chessur> and namami
[07:03] <chessur> if you do put seebos on the t3d
[07:03] <chessur> that is fine
[07:03] <chessur> you have 3 mids
[07:03] <chessur> on the confessor
[07:03] <chessur> also, you can't point out to 80K
[07:04] <chessur> nerfing lock range does not hurt all uses of the ship
[07:04] <chessur> just in the ability for a normally fit ship
[07:04] <chessur> to suddenly turn into a corm sniper
[07:04] <chessur> a 50K lock range
[07:04] <chessur> allows you to still kite and kill frigates / other destroyers
[07:04] <chessur> and it allows you to brawl
[07:05] <chessur> in what other situation would 50K not be enough?
[07:05] <chessur> If you want to build a purpose sniper hull- then go ahead, throw seebos on it. Like all other small sniper ships (harpy / corm) ext.
[07:05] <chessur> or am I missing something?
[07:07] <namamai> It's a reasonable argument. Although I can't help but feel that it's removing some of the flexibility of the hull.
[07:08] <chessur> certainly, what we are doing here is removing this flexibility?
[07:08] <chessur> T3Ds are so good, because all of their flexible options
[07:08] <chessur> out perform other hulls
[07:09] <chessur> whos sole purpose is that option
[07:09] <fintarue> I don't want to remove the flexibility. I want to push that flexibility by toning them down a bit so people have to use that flexibility more. The problem right now is that they do things so well you don't really need to be flexible
[07:10] <chessur> Agreed
[07:10] <suitonia> I'm happy with the range bonuses on the Sharpshooter hull, I also think that lock range bonus on sharpshooter is fine.
[07:11] <chessur> please explain
[07:11] <suitonia> Scan res bonus being lowered or removed I would be happy with
[07:11] <fintarue> Explaining that he's happy with them?
[07:11] <chessur> yes suitonia
[07:11] <chessur> how is 300 heated DPS out of confessor out to 80K ok?
[07:11] <chessur> why is jackdaw LML missile range in the hundreds of kilometers
[07:11] <chessur> with regular fitting
[07:12] <suitonia> In Sharpshooter mode with the other changes I am ok with it.
[07:12] <chessur> Its opressive
[07:12] <chessur> A single confessor makes an 80K death sphere for frigates
[07:12] <suitonia> a Beam 80k Confessor has 6.5k EHP in sharpshooter mode
[07:12] <chessur> it costs less than 75mil
[07:12] <suitonia> RLML Is the exact same thing
[07:12] <chessur> Yes, and does eve need more of that?
[07:13] <chessur> we have many LML / RLML cancer boats
[07:13] <chessur> why more?
[07:14] <suitonia> Well for one RLML Caracal has 30k EHP (or 26k EHP with range rigs to get up to 80km optimal), Confessor has 6.5k EHP in Sharpshooter, also, The Confessor will get absolutely destroyed by any similar hull or AF landing on it at 0km. It's also vulnerable to being run down by Attack Cruisers, which is not a weakness that the Caracal shares so much. Harpys already do that but with more range/less DPS.
[07:15] <chessur> A confessor is fast enough with heated propulsion to pull away from frigate threat
[07:15] <chessur> with insane agility
[07:15] <chessur> and then
[07:15] <chessur> you switch to standard
[07:15] <suitonia> sure, but in speed mode, it doesn't have the range.
[07:15] <chessur> with 350 dps
[07:15] <chessur> and 2 shot
[07:15] <suitonia> I don't see a problem with that gameplay chessur
[07:16] <chessur> hmm
[07:16] <chessur> ok
[07:16] <suitonia> with a mode spool up mechanic too
[07:16] <suitonia> there are opportunities for frigates to outplay the Confessor
[07:16] <suitonia> especially if the speed mode is replaced with hecate speed mode
[07:16] <suitonia> and it's a sitting duck if scrammed
[07:17] <chessur> true
[07:17] <chessur> however getting a scram on it
[07:17] <chessur> should be neigh impossible
[07:17] <chessur> 500 DPS with heated multi lol
[07:17] <chessur> and web
[07:17] <chessur> lolol
[07:17] <suitonia> yeah it does a lot of DPS.
[07:18] <suitonia> I think thats fine though
[07:18] <chessur> I guess i just run into problems
[07:18] <suitonia> Esp. if we move DPS into the sharpshooter hull
[07:18] <chessur> because unlike other destroyer hulls
[07:18] <chessur> T3Ds completely crush anything destroyer and down
[07:18] <chessur> whereas Sabres / thrashers / corax
[07:19] <chessur> can be killed by that shit
[07:19] <suitonia> With the speed mode removed, if a Frigate gets a scram and orbits a beam confessor
[07:19] <suitonia> it will not be able to track
[07:19] <suitonia> I mean hecate speed
[07:19] <suitonia> so confessor moves at 213m/s instead of 490m/s base
[07:19] <suitonia> when scrammed
[07:20] <suitonia> you will have much more angular velocity and able to orbit at a sharper bank
[07:20] <suitonia> Also I'm pretty sure most brawl fit t1 destroyers can kill sniper fit T3Ds at 0km
[07:20] <suitonia> if they find the opportunity
[07:20] <fintarue> I'm strongly opposed to the spool up. I think it encourages people to sit in one mode instead of swapping to them situationally.
[07:22] <gorski_car> I like the swapping = mode is powerful and gets weaker the longer you stay in
[07:22] <chessur> sigh
[07:22] <chessur> with a web
[07:22] <chessur> i am not sure suit
[07:22] <chessur> as for the mode decay
[07:22] <chessur> I am not a huge fan : /
[07:22] <chessur> this is harder than i thought it was going to be lol
[07:23] <fintarue> I've killed plenty of sniper confessors even with webs by getting them scrammed and under their guns. The svipul is another story
[07:23] <fintarue> And the hecate is tough too
[07:23] <syenna-celeste> I like the idea in concept but I don't see it being a fun mechanic.
[07:23] <syenna-celeste> Mode spool up that is.
[07:23] <syenna-celeste> Either decay or increase.
[07:23] <gorski_car> swapping to defensive mode to get a short huge ressitance bonus and rep up would be cool
[07:24] <namamai> I like it in theory, but I have the same concern I had last time this idea was proposed -- you have to make the decay long enough that it'll have a lasting benefit for more than a few seconds.
[07:24] <suitonia> It shouldn't be longer than 10 seconds though
[07:24] <suitonia> otherwise there is no point to mode swapping
[07:24] <namamai> i.e. if the decay was ten seconds on Hecate def mode, for example, then you're getting a benefit for all of 3 cycles
[07:24] <namamai> of a rep
[07:25] <selto_black> I'm sorry but mode decay would regulate t3d's out of the hands of newbros and pve players.
[07:25] <gorski_car> I dont see any problem with increasing the skillcap beyond defensive mode and forget
[07:26] <hoodie-mafia> Newbros shouldn't fly tech III ships before they learn the game
[07:26] <chessur> And The PvE concerns
[07:26] <fintarue> That should come more from having other reasons to swap to the other modes in mid fight. Such as damage and sensor streangth on sharp
[07:26] <selto_black> Simple mechanics are what we should be aiming for imo. Balance through complexity is usually not a good idea.
[07:26] <chessur> I feel are becoming over emphasized
[07:26] <chessur> Certainly
[07:26] <chessur> it not complex
[07:26] <chessur> to have a decay on skill
[07:26] <suitonia> Well, CCP made that easy for them, by making the T3Ds the only ship you can use for Small Complexes, and the shortest skill requirements for any T2/Advanced ship in the game
[07:27] <chessur> Perhaps that was a mistake
[07:27] <chessur> new players benefit more from going cruiser route
[07:27] <chessur> imo
[07:27] <selto_black> So do you feel that t3ds should have a longer skill time?
[07:27] <chessur> i do
[07:27] <suitonia> I ran several 4/10s with a mwd fit jackdaw and it was absolutely fine
[07:27] <suitonia> I don't
[07:27] <suitonia> btw
[07:27] <suitonia> Last night
[07:27] <suitonia> i.e. AB fit concerns
[07:28] <chessur> yah
[07:28] <chessur> PvE they are going to be fine no matter what i think
[07:28] <selto_black> If you have a ship that is easy to reach for new players, it should be balanced at least somewhat for new players.
[07:28] <selto_black> Untrue chessur.
[07:28] <namamai> suitonia: Don't forget, T3Ds are being removed from small complexes
[07:28] <suitonia> Read CCP's statement
[07:28] <namamai> (If you mean FW nodes)
[07:28] <suitonia> I know nam
[07:28] <suitonia> I was meaning, lots of new players have already skilled for them
[07:29] <suitonia> Because of 0.0 doctrines and small FW complexes and FW fleets
[07:30] <chessur> because T3Ds are so easy to train inot
[07:30] <chessur> I don't think that they need to have very basic and simple mechanics as well
[07:30] <chessur> allow for both player and Sp growth within the hull
[07:30] <chessur> I don't think that is a bad thing
[07:31] <chessur> I personally would never recommend a new player train for them over going the cruiser route, but that is my opinion
[07:31] <suitonia> I don't think it is all that complicated
[07:31] <chessur> i agree
[07:31] <suitonia> I mean you can still fire and forget if you want
[07:31] <chessur> i don't think so as well
[07:31] <suitonia> If Defensive was 40% resists for 10s, then 20% resists
[07:31] <suitonia> for example
[07:31] <suitonia> then you could still sit in defensive as a new player
[07:32] <syenna-celeste> Or as an old player that knows he needs those 20% resists to survive. That kind of mechanic would be okay. It's just applying something similar to other modes.
[07:32] <suitonia> for most PVE content, you are in sharpshooter mode exclusively anwyay
[07:32] <suitonia> I don't think going from 33% resists constantly to 20% resists is that much of a loss
[07:32] <suitonia> that it breaks PVE
[07:33] <suitonia> It would be nice having a higher skill cap ship for PVE
[07:33] <selto_black> It's possible. And you are correct that sharpshooter is the mode of choice.
[07:34] <selto_black> But.
[07:34] <suitonia> and more advanced players who can weave in and out of a rotation to get the most out of the ship will have an edge, but thats fine
[07:34] <selto_black> What decay mechanic would there be on sharpshooter?
[07:34] <suitonia> You could have 15% damage boost in sharpshooter, doubled for 10s
[07:34] <suitonia> as an example
[07:35] <suitonia> so the damage would be only slightly than now overall staying in perma sharpshooter
[07:35] <gorski_car> Thoughts about increasing the cooldown on mode swapping btW?
[07:35] <fintarue> I see no real reason to do that, specially when we're considering making the decision behind mode swapping that much weightier already
[07:35] <suitonia> 10s is fine
[07:35] <selto_black> That it would discourage mode swapping to an extent.
[07:36] <suitonia> If you think about a T3D fight
[07:36] <gorski_car> I dunno I cant seem to kill a t3d in the 10 sec they are in speed mode
[07:36] <suitonia> it will likely take around 60-90s ruling out OGBS and shit
[07:36] <suitonia> which allows for 6-9 mode swaps
[07:36] <suitonia> potentially
[07:36] <suitonia> which is cool
[07:37] <gorski_car> I fought a hecate yesterday with my slicer, he chased me in speed mode, swapped defensive in low armor and reped back up full then repeat
[07:37] <gorski_car> no time to break him
[07:38] <suitonia> By the 15% damage boost on sharpshooter, I was referring to@sardcaid's earlier discussion where we talked about removing some damage from the role bonus, and then putting it into sharpshooter mode
[07:38] <fintarue> Well, that's something that'll aslo be rather unique to the Hecate, most other t3d don't quite have that option
[07:38] <suitonia> The cap on the Hecate is quite limiting too
[07:39] <suitonia> He probably had an injector
[07:39] <gorski_car> svipul also does that
[07:39] <gorski_car> at least the standard masb fit
[07:39] <suitonia> Is a kiting frigate going to be able to break a T3D ever though? Should it?
[07:40] <fintarue> A single frigate against a t3d should be an insanely hard fight to begin with
[07:40] <gorski_car> I dunno 200 dps is quite a bit
[07:40] <fintarue> Even a t2 fit hecate can tank 200 dps with little problem
[07:40] <fintarue> And I think that's appropriate
[07:40] <gorski_car> tbh it will be less of a problem once they are gone from smalls
[07:41] <fintarue> Most of the fighting I experience happens outside of the outpost anyways. It just means there's another outpost that frigate can slide in to and not have a chase. I don't see it as changing too much
[07:42] <suitonia> it will help the lowsec FW meta a lot I think
[07:42] <gorski_car> well I am in FW so I have to be inside the plexes
[07:42] <suitonia> New players right now need to skill T3D to be competitive at all
[07:42] <suitonia> you can't use t1 fit thrashers/coraxes anymore
[07:42] <suitonia> which used to be ok
[07:43] <suitonia> Removing T3Ds from small allows Interdictors, AFs, EAFs, T1 Destroyers etc. to be competitive in there once again
[07:43] <gorski_car> yep
[07:43] <suitonia> which currently cannot exist and have to warp if any T3D is on d-scan
[07:43] <gorski_car> armor thrashers are so fun in those plexes
[07:54] <suitonia> Also the real important questions
[07:54] <suitonia> T3D skins when?
[07:54] <suitonia> ))
[07:54] <johndrees> Asking the hard questions.
[07:54] <hoodie-mafia> Seconded
[07:55] <hoodie-mafia> Police Hecate
[07:55] <suitonia> Police Hecate, Khanid Confessor, Thukker Svipul, Sunset Jackdaw:smile:
[07:56] <fintarue> Khanid confessor, yes please
[08:54] <johndrees> Hey guys, have they publicly released the logs yet?
[08:54] <fintarue> I haven't seen em yet
[08:55] <johndrees> Have I missed any further interactions with us from CCP?
[08:55] <johndrees> Last thing I saw was the three points to consider from fozzie.
[08:58] <namamai> Nope, it's been radio silence for the last few days.
[08:58] <namamai> In the interim, I'd suggest filling out Sard's spreadsheet to make quick references easier. (Which I still need to do myself.)
[09:04] <sardcaid> Regarding sharpshooter mode, my biggest question is if and why T3D should have greater projection than other destroyer counterparts
[09:05] <sardcaid> I do think that lock range is a part of the solution, as forcing rig / mid slots to expand on lock range is a good way to address both potential projection or tankiness of the sniper dessie
[09:06] <sardcaid> I don't agree that ECM should be so harshly penalized as has been suggested so far - I'm quite happy with a destroyer gaining 100% increased sensor strength, but beyond that seems too much
[09:07] <sardcaid> though I think the base sensor strength of the T3D should be high relative to T1 destroyers anyway
[09:07] <sardcaid> I'm not sure how those compare
[09:07] <sardcaid> I agree that scan resolution buff should go entirely away
[09:08] <sardcaid> I think suitonia hit the nail on the head for moving some of the damage bonus from the hull to sharpshooter mode - take off a quarter from the base hull, add a 1.2x modifier to sharpshooter
[09:08] <sardcaid> in effect is same as 1.5 and 1.5 modifiers
[09:08] <fintarue> Base sensor strength is marginally better than t1 dessie
[09:08] <fintarue> Seems it's the same as dictors
[09:09] <fintarue> Even in sharpshooter the way it is now, a griffin can almost perma jam it
[09:09] <sardcaid> I think it's a cool mode bonus to give T3D ECM resistance, but I don' t think it should approach BS or better with some crazy greater than 100% buff on swap
[09:09] <sardcaid> I argue that's an issue with ECM, not the mode bonus
[09:10] <sardcaid> and I think that one EWAR ship knocking out one other ship is in line with what is to be expected from an EWAR ship
[09:10] <suitonia> I think ECM is balanced, just a really poor god awful mechanic
[09:11] <sardcaid> there are so many quality of life improvements that could be made to ECM that I don't think it's balanced, at least not in small scale PvP end of game
[09:11] <suitonia> No definately not, it's 100% broken in <5 man fights
[09:11] <sardcaid> I agree it's currently not a fun mechanic to boot
[09:11] <suitonia> And it also becomes hard to use effectively beyond >20 man fights
[09:12] <sardcaid> maybe CCP can make a ECM focus group, to increase the icelandic salt production for 2015
[09:12] <fintarue> lol
[09:12] <suitonia> Falcon = end of any <5 man fight
[09:13] <suitonia> unless you have specialized ships like a Keres
[09:13] <suitonia> to disable that
[09:13] <sardcaid> but again, when you start jacking up the attributes of ship up a class or two, or how discussion has been going, even higher, it says there's an issue with the mechnic, and any solution should be focused on the mechanic, not the ship
[09:14] <suitonia> I don't see a problem with the ECCM Strength on sharpshooter, one of the few reasons to swap to sharpshooter currently anyway
[09:14] <sardcaid> no problem, rather there's been discussion to increase the benefit
[09:14] <suitonia> I don't think it needs increasing
[09:14] <sardcaid> cool
[09:15] <suitonia> I mean, T3D in sharpshooter mode already requires specialized probers
[09:15] <suitonia> Svipul in Sharpshooter has like 35 strength / 50 sig
[09:15] <sardcaid> regarding sharpshooter modes, is there any particular reason that a T3D should receive better than 10% per level bonus to range?
[09:15] <suitonia> I'm pretty sure it can reach the 'Unprobable' status with links easily
[09:15] <suitonia> while in sharpshooter
[09:15] <suitonia> I mean the scan difficulty cap
[09:15] <suitonia> requiring virtues
[09:15] <suitonia> thats currently
[09:16] <suitonia> The only reason is because of the "33% thing they got going on, and the 3s stuff"
[09:16] <suitonia> 3 modes, 33% multiple bonuses
[09:16] <suitonia> etc.
[09:16] <suitonia> It seems more like flavor than balance
[09:17] <sardcaid> I never looked for that
[09:17] <sardcaid> I guess solution is find OCD devs at CCP and muzzle them?
[09:17] <sardcaid> Kappa
[09:17] <sardcaid> But really though, balance wise, I don't think that T3D should project more than T1 / dictors
[09:18] <syenna-celeste> Yeah but some T1 destroyers do project really well
[09:18] <suitonia> The main advantage dictors have is application
[09:18] <fintarue> Dictors have lots of advantages over their t1 counterpoarts
[09:18] <fintarue> parts*
[09:19] <suitonia> I.e. Flycatcher has Explosion Radius reduction on missiles, both Eris and Sabre have 50% tracking bonuses
[09:19] <fintarue> faster, better tank, and damage/application
[09:19] <syenna-celeste> If the whole idea of 'T3' is flexibility then having the option to match or come close to the high projection platforms for some kind of drawback seems like a good design choice.
[09:19] <sardcaid> Right
[09:21] <sardcaid> I don't think T3D should gain application bonuses, players should be forced to use application mods / rigs / piloting to achieve that. I'm okay with T3D having a strong projection bonus similar to T1 dessies, but not?*both*?a strong projection and application bonus
[09:22] <sardcaid> The moment you pair equal application, equal projection with T3D, competition drops out due to adaptability and tankiness of T3D
[09:23] <suitonia> Only the Hecate/Svipul get application bonuses
[09:23] <suitonia> I would argue that the Hecate probably needs it to be competitive with blasters/rails
[09:23] <suitonia> Svipul I'm not so sure
[09:23] <sardcaid> I think the hecate is fine with application boni, mostly due to fitting constraints
[09:23] <fintarue> Considering how little it's used as it is
[09:23] <fintarue> On the svipul
[09:24] <sardcaid> when you toss damage bonus to sharpshooter mode, it's much more relevant discussion whether tracking bonus should be there
[09:25] <suitonia> I think it's fine for the tracking bonus to be on the hecate hull
[09:25] <sardcaid> agree
[09:26] <suitonia> Do you feel like swapping the 50% optimal on Svipul hull with the 33% tracking on sharpshooter would be a good option?
[09:26] <sardcaid> ahhh no
[09:26] <sardcaid> I feel like opt + fall + tracking could be okay
[09:26] <fintarue> Ok, let me pose this then. We're talking about possibly having no application bonuses. Does the hecate really need it? The confessor does fine applying, and rails track better than beams. Blasters don't particularly need it, and hecatees often have a web since they armor tank
[09:26] <fintarue> Does it even need the tracking bonus?
[09:27] <sardcaid> or a single strong falloff would be okay
[09:27] <fintarue> The svipul hardly uses the tracking bonus currently
[09:28] <sardcaid> and it feels fine without it
[09:28] <gorski_car> I dont like the svipuls tracking on sharpshooter
[09:28] <gorski_car> it doesnt need it with acs and speed mode often gives more tracking
[09:29] <fintarue> Even if the svipul's prop mode was changed to be like the Hecates, it would still likely be the fastest of the t3d, but would be more vulnerable if caught with arties, as it rightfully should be
[09:29] <sardcaid> if you change speed mode to MWD bonus, you no longer have velocity to match trans
[09:29] <sardcaid> you become much more reliant on web for both AC and arty
[09:30] <fintarue> I don't see an issue with that considering the big complaint of the svipul is the 2xMSE AC fit
[09:30] <fintarue> Which already runs without a web
[09:30] <sardcaid> yup
[09:30] <fintarue> Which would force people to heavily consider, full tank or do I want that web
[09:31] <fintarue> Which is similar to a shield gank thrasher
[09:31] <fintarue> This would just give people another option to consider, which I strongly support
[09:32] <sardcaid> if you do away with that tracking bonus, even with damage bonus on sharpshooter, you lose much of the reason to swap modes
[09:32] <sardcaid> I think there should be some amount of range in that mode
[09:32] <fintarue> No one already swaps modes on the svipul
[09:32] <fintarue> Tackle, defensive mode
[09:33] <sardcaid> again CCP wants to put damage in sharpshooter
[09:33] <sardcaid> that's huge incentive to use sharpshooter
[09:33] <sardcaid> but what else should be there
[09:33] <fintarue> I was looking at your previous statement, you made it sound like it would reduce the need to swap modes even futher
[09:34] <fintarue> You're wanting range and damage to be on Sharp for the Svipul, if I'm understanding
[09:34] <sardcaid> I think so, yes
[09:34] <fintarue> I agree to that. It would also put in perfectly in line with the other t3d that have range already on sharp
[09:34] <sardcaid> the svipul already has range bonus on hull though, so I'm conflicted
[09:34] <fintarue> Take it off the hull
[09:35] <sardcaid> but but butt
[09:35] <fintarue> It's already useless for AC with optimal
[09:35] <fintarue> Put it all on Sharp, like the others
[09:35] <fintarue> Encourage people to sit in Sharp for damage/range or go full tank
[09:35] <sardcaid> so what does svipul get in place of opt boni on hull
[09:36] <syenna-celeste> falloff
[09:36] <sardcaid> chrome fittings?
[09:36] <sardcaid> spoiler?
[09:36] <syenna-celeste> oh nvm i just read
[09:36] <syenna-celeste> ..actually, still valid.
[09:36] <sardcaid> I'm not sure if it is syenna
[09:37] <fintarue> Well all of the other ships have some sort of damage on the hull
[09:37] <johndrees> I'm I'm full support of sensor strength instead of scan resolution.
[09:37] <sardcaid> that'll still be there
[09:37] <sardcaid> they also have X extra
[09:37] <fintarue> That's part of what'll move to sharp
[09:37] <fintarue> Hecate has tracking
[09:37] <fintarue> Jackdaw has missile switch speed
[09:37] <syenna-celeste> Reload speed bonus would be stronk.
[09:37] <syenna-celeste> And interesting.
[09:37] <fintarue> Confessor....has that lame energy turret cost
[09:38] <sardcaid> oh shit
[09:38] <sardcaid> oh shit guys
[09:38] <sardcaid> artee fitting boni
[09:38] <sardcaid> boosh
[09:38] <sardcaid> bam paff zamo
[09:38] <fintarue> I was tossing that around in my head the other day but wasn't sure
[09:38] <gorski_car> can they even do that
[09:38] <sardcaid> sure
[09:38] <fintarue> It does on the Attack BC
[09:38] <fintarue> reduced fitting on large gubns
[09:39] <sardcaid> well attack BC has projectile fitting bonus
[09:39] <fintarue> Similar principle should work
[09:39] <sardcaid> I think they can
[09:39] <gorski_car> yeah they can
[09:39] <gorski_car> bombers have torps only
[09:39] <sardcaid> bombers have torp fitting bonus
[09:39] <sardcaid> yeah
[09:39] <fintarue> Bingo
[09:39] <sardcaid> maybe that's missiles only though
[09:39] <sardcaid> try to do that on turrets and poses start doing funny stuff
[09:39] <fintarue> Ok, before we get to interested in that. What would be the consequences of that action? What would we see change
[09:40] <fintarue> The AC stuff would stay around the same, but Arty fits would potentially end up with more tank
[09:40] <sardcaid> Well it allows you to address fitting on svipul
[09:40] <fintarue> If we did that, I'd still reduce PG or some sort of fitting on svipul
[09:40] <fintarue> ya
[09:40] <sardcaid> artee can't has as much tank, AC can have harder to fit tank, more reason to look at lower tier guns
[09:41] <fintarue> I think here the question is, do we feel the AC fit should get hit because it can fit too much? Or because it has no reason to swap modes ever
[09:41] <sardcaid> It's been one of the hotter talking points of this focus group, svipul fitting
[09:41] <fintarue> The mode changes we've been tossing around would affect the reason to swap modes immensly
[09:44] <sardcaid> I don't think we can effectively address fitting until we nail down with some firmness what we'd like to see out of modes, including propulsion mode
[09:44] <sardcaid> We've talked a lot about prop mode earlier and seems we're at consensus, but we should touch up on it one more time
[09:45] <sardcaid> from there I think we have a good picture of what mode swaps and hull bonuses could look like without radical change
[09:45] <sardcaid> then we can start picking apart individual ships with their current attributes and fitting to see what's broke / unbalanced
[09:46] <fintarue> I like that most of the discussion isn't just a simple nerf, but a restructure
[09:46] <sardcaid> well, it's a light nerf in many places, but the integrity of the ship and it's mission is similar
[09:46] <sardcaid> I think making prop mode MWD bonuses only is a huge nerf to svip / confessor
[09:46] <sardcaid> for example
[09:46] <sardcaid> but warranted
[09:49] <sardcaid> There's been a lot of really good debate today on sharpshooter mode
[09:49] <sardcaid> I was surprised to see how much text there's been since I last logged in
[09:50] <sardcaid> That said though, does anyone think we shouldn't move on to propulsion mode discussion now?
[09:50] <sardcaid> I don't think we're done with sharpshooter but we can come back to it later
[09:53] <suitonia> In respect to propulsion mode, I think a lot has already been said
[09:53] <fintarue> I think Defensive is the one a lot of people have been troubled with
[09:54] <fintarue> I think most of us have agreed that the hecate is the most reasonable with how it is
[09:54] <fintarue> It's very strong, but does not take a lot to shut it down.
[09:54] <fintarue> Combined with it's other weaknesses
[09:56] <sardcaid> I have a bone to pick about instant warp that I want to have discussed
[09:56] <sardcaid> Also I'd like to discuss MWD sig penalty reduction
[10:00] <fintarue> What do you have in mind
[10:00] <sardcaid> okay let's formally dive into this then
[10:05] <sardcaid> So on propulsion mode: What's good? What's bad? Are changes needed? Please be specific, in that if you think one ship's propulsion mode is fine and another's isn't, point that out.
[10:05] <sardcaid> Pinned a message.See all pinned items in this channel. sardcaid So on propulsion mode: What's good? What's bad? Are changes needed? Please be specific, in that if you think one ship's propulsion mode is fine and another's isn't, point that out. Oct 13th at 10:05 PM
[10:06] <sardcaid> so past discussion up until this point has been that the hecate's prop mode is good, and to emulate that across all 4 T3D
[10:07] <sardcaid> Svipul / confessor velocity bonus on prop mode raises issues with frigates / destroyers being able to get under tracking of those ships
[10:07] <fintarue> Well it also lends to why the hecate is well balanced. The ship is strong, but because of the low base speed it takes damage from medium class weapon systems in a way that makes it so cruisers+ can fight it reasonably
[10:07] <sardcaid> also that under scram confessor / svipul are too mobile, and can't effectively be held down
[10:07] <sardcaid> as much as they should relative to other destroyers fit with MWD, anyway
[10:08] <sardcaid> While I think having slight differences between T3D modes adds to flavor and is fun
[10:08] <sardcaid> and does warrant an additional look
[10:08] <sardcaid> I think sloppily throwing around that basic mode to other T3D is good starting point
[10:09] <sardcaid> starting there, my greatest issue is while in prop mode, the hecate can't be tackled from decloak / arrival on grid
[10:09] <sardcaid> 2 second align time is far too low for a destroyer as a base attribute in propulsion mode
[10:10] <sardcaid> the closest similar ship to that align time is an i-stabbed travel interceptor, and I don't think that's a healthy comparison
[10:10] <sardcaid> to a combat fit T3D
[10:10] <fintarue> I think the agility should be something unique to jackdaw/hecate
[10:11] <fintarue> But I think limiting the speed bonus to MWD only would be ideal
[10:11] <sardcaid> A nice thing about making agility universal on propulsion mode is that it helps all T3D if they're using oversized prop
[10:12] <fintarue> Because of the PG on the hecate and jackdaw, 10mn is practically non-existant though, not just because of the lowered speed
[10:12] <sardcaid> another way to look at prop mode is that you can invest agility into propulsion mode, and have weaker align as base attribute, and very strong align in mode
[10:12] <sardcaid> alternatively you have average to good align as base attribute
[10:13] <sardcaid> right, so when applying prop mode bonuses to confessor / svipul, I think having some amount of good agility, possibly in prop mode is healthy
[10:14] <fintarue> Ok, how about this suggestion then? The complaint for those, specially the svipul is that in prop mode it affects base speed. How about taking that off? Leave it so confessor and svipul still get an increase with AB and MWD, but no bonus to their base speed
[10:16] <sardcaid> oh man AB speed bonus is so scary though
[10:16] <fintarue> It already gets it Sard
[10:16] <sardcaid> and it's broked so I don't want it back :S
[10:17] <sardcaid> it's so hard to gauge with AB what % extra speed on AB is broken and not
[10:17] <sardcaid> I'd think less than sansha is good
[10:17] <sardcaid> 25% maybe?
[10:18] <sardcaid> good news on effectiveness bonus for AB and MWD is that selto was complaining that taking off velocity bonus is frustrating for sleeper / blood raider sites
[10:19] <sardcaid> another question on my end is why should svipul / confessor have AB bonus? what about their function says they should be AB bonused?
[10:19] <sardcaid> that they work well with AB to me is separate to having an AB bonus
[10:19] <suitonia> Also, +66% agility is a boost to Sig tanking too
[10:19] <suitonia> esp with 10mn ab
[10:19] <suitonia> since you can make sharper turns
[10:19] <suitonia> and have higher angular velocity
[10:20] <fintarue> I'd rahter not give the confessor or svipul the hecate agility
[10:20] <sardcaid> Any ship having hecate agility in prop mode is troublesome
[10:21] <fintarue> They align reasonably fast already while in prop with the current 33% bonus
[10:22] <fintarue> Ok, question. Would the speeds stay the same if the bonus was made to only affect prop mods? Since it'd be affecting a lower base speed
[10:23] <sardcaid> can you rephrase that question?
[10:23] <sardcaid> I don't know what you're talking about
[10:24] <fintarue> Svipul/Confessor Propulsion mode gives a 66.6% bonus to maximum velocity
[10:24] <fintarue> If you removed that and made the propulsion mode bonus. 66.6% Velocity bonus to MWD and AB speed
[10:25] <fintarue> How would that change the speeds of the ship with a prop module active? The base speed while in propulsion mode for the svipul would go from 479 to 288
[10:26] <fintarue> The bonus for the Hecate is for inertia modifier, which I'm sure goes into the speed calculation for MWD
[10:27] <fintarue> The confessor/svipul are for agility
[10:27] <fintarue> I'm not positive if this affects how fast they'd go with a propulsion module
[10:27] <sfm_hobb3s> Without the agility you can kiss using any t3d in big fleets good bye
[10:28] <fintarue> I'm not recommending taking off the agility at all
[10:28] <fintarue> Just changing where the speed bonus is applied
[10:28] <sfm_hobb3s> no I realize that.
[10:28] <sfm_hobb3s> I'm just saying.
[10:29] <sfm_hobb3s> In most fleet fights I actually rarely use my mwd
[10:29] <sfm_hobb3s> except the rare occasion I've gotten a little too close and I'm already aligned somewhere to warp if I start seeing yellow
[10:29] <sfm_hobb3s> and moving to gates through bubbles of course
[10:30] <sfm_hobb3s> so if I'm moving approx 500m/s and you cut that down by almost half...I'll be taking significantly more damage from any tertiary fire
[10:31] <sfm_hobb3s> which isn't a bad thing, but probably not a good thing due to the huge tank difference between t3d brawlers and snipers
[10:34] <sfm_hobb3s> sniper hecate would probably get hit worse. has worse tank than my confessor does:wink:
[10:36] <fintarue> Sniper hecate wouldn't change at all
[10:37] <fintarue> It's bonus already only applies to MWD
[10:37] <suitonia> @fintarueThe Hecate has a lower mass than most Frigates in the game
[10:37] <suitonia> which provides a bigger bonus to prop on speeds
[10:37] <suitonia> while allowing the base speed t be lower
[10:37] <suitonia> its one of the really fine points and whys its really well balanced
[10:38] <fintarue> Agreed, but if I understand, that means changing the velocity to only apply to mwd and ab speeds on the confessor/svipul wouldn't work the same then
[10:38] <fintarue> Without having the inertia bonus as well
[10:38] <suitonia> You nerf the agility on them to hecate while outside speed mode
[10:39] <suitonia> then give 66% agility
[10:39] <suitonia> hecate aligns slower than a thorax when not in speed mode
[10:40] <suitonia> Thorax Align: 5.43s Hecate Align: 5.96s
[10:40] <suitonia> which is good because it means outside of speed mode, its really hard to mitigate damage
[10:40] <suitonia> because you can't orbit well
[10:40] <suitonia> and with your terrible base speed
[10:40] <suitonia> every cruiser can just double click in space
[10:41] <suitonia> to get perfect tracking
[10:41] <suitonia> with mutual control
[10:41] <sfm_hobb3s> very true. I actually fit a hecate as a fleet sniper in an effort to see if it would fare better than confessor. Usage wise its about the same. But you really have to commit to your mode switches. It was a bit less forgiving than confessor.
[10:41] <suitonia> Also on the subject of mass removal from confessor since we have discussed it before
[10:42] <suitonia> I suggested adding a 50% reduction in mass penalty from plates (Should be able to do this because this skill already exists Armor Layering)
[10:42] <suitonia> to mitigate the penalty from big plates
[10:43] <fintarue> What would the purpose of that be?
[10:43] <suitonia> Lower the mass, lower the base speed
[10:44] <suitonia> same outcome with prop on speeds
[10:44] <sfm_hobb3s> can't eve fit plates on my sniper fits =/
[10:44] <sfm_hobb3s> can't even
[10:44] <suitonia> but the plate reduction penalty will help with the extra slowdown from plates
[10:44] <fintarue> Many confessors don't even bother with plates though
[10:45] <suitonia> No, but its still nice to have.
[10:45] <suitonia> to stop the tears
[10:45] <suitonia> on reddit
[10:45] <sardcaid> I'm not even sure an RR confessor uses larger than a single 200mm plate
[10:45] <suitonia> also some fleet fits use 200mm plate
[10:45] <sardcaid> c/d?
[10:45] <suitonia> yes
[10:46] <suitonia> Sure, but I remember 2 people in here objected because "my plate fit will be slower"
[10:46] <suitonia> which is why I suggested that
[10:46] <sardcaid> I see
[10:46] <suitonia> and it's a fairly interesting bonus
[10:46] <suitonia> kinda of like the jackdaw bonus
[10:47] <sardcaid> here's some fun: would that be base hull or propulsion mode?
[10:47] <suitonia> base hull IMO
[10:48] <sardcaid> okay, another fun bit: why give the confessor the only instance of an extra bonus to base hull?
[10:48] <sardcaid> svipul, confessor and hecate all can run with a plate and stay within design of armor capable
[10:49] <sardcaid> an alternative is moving cap usage bonus to sniper mode, but I don't think many would stomach that
[10:49] <suitonia> Is the cap bonus needed as much now?
[10:49] <suitonia> I mean it used to have 6 guns
[10:49] <suitonia> then reduced to 4
[10:49] <fintarue> Cap is pretty rough
[10:49] <suitonia> so the cap requirement is lower now
[10:50] <suitonia> You could make the plate bonus 10% per level
[10:50] <suitonia> then just give 50% cap reduction role bonus
[10:51] <suitonia> I also don't think the Confessor necessarily needs a plate role bonus either, just FYI, but CCP has been pushing a lot of Amarr hulls towards high base speed, high mass, so they don't lose as much speed from plates, by lowering mass and lowering base speed we are kind of moving away from that design
[10:52] <sardcaid> I have no qualms with dropping the discussion and letting those with stronger opinions on the matter bring it back up
[10:57] <sardcaid> Alright, so with all that said, how do people feel about adding a MWD sig penalty reduction either to the base hull, or propulsion mode?
[10:57] <sardcaid> This would coincide with general reduction of resistance on defensive mode, and increase of base signature
[10:58] <sardcaid> to ~destroyer+ levels (plus being slightly better)
[10:59] <fintarue> Honestly, that's something I'd like to see possibly stick with AF and HAC. Not to mention, right now BCs are in a good place to deal with t3d and giving them a sig reduction would hurt that quite a bit I feel
[10:59] <suitonia> Hecate doesn't have that
[10:59] <suitonia> and has quite a bigger base sig too
[10:59] <suitonia> and it's fine
[11:00] <fintarue> Svipul's is a MWD reduction only while in defensive mode
[11:00] <fintarue> Doesn't get used in almost any situation
[11:00] <suitonia> yep, the current Svipul gameplay is either of these 1) Arty: You are in speed mode the entire fight 2) AC Brawl: You are in speed mode until you get a scram, then you're in defensive the whole fight
[11:01] <sardcaid> The way I see T3D, which is similar to T3C, is that they approximate greatly the AS and HAC roles
[11:02] <sardcaid> If we're lowering the effectiveness of T3D, even if ever so slightly, why not use or use a portion of that role bonus?
[11:02] <suitonia> Why do they need it ?
[11:02] <sardcaid> fleet survivability mostly
[11:02] <suitonia> They should hurt from cruiser weapon s
[11:02] <suitonia> they're used in fleets already without that
[11:03] <sardcaid> So a lot of this discussion has talked about increasing signature, reducing resistance bonus, increasing base signature
[11:04] <fintarue> With the proposed changes to sharpshooter, and possible changes to the base speed and or propulsion mode, I see no reason to necesarily reduce the resists in defense. Since defense mode, specifically on the Svipul, is a struggle because of no need to swap modes, and because it's naturally high base speed
[11:05] <fintarue> Combining lots of changes that all blend together might hit them far too hard over all. Even the dreaded MSE svipul would be much more manageable if the player is forced to decide between damage in sharp, or the extra tank. That really solidifies the different flavors of the modes as well
[11:06] <sardcaid> regarding that last statement, meant to type shortening weapon range, reduced resistance, increased base signature
[11:06] <sardcaid> It's up to CCP to decide what blend of recommendations, if any, to take
[11:07] <sardcaid> I'd rather flood this chat with what I perceiving are viable routes than leave something on the wayside
[11:07] <fintarue> Agreed, but if we can all hash out some relatively good proposals it would look better also
[11:07] <sardcaid> we'll get there
[11:07] <sardcaid> soon than later I think
[11:08] <fintarue> With the progress that I feel has been made in the past couple of days, very likely
[11:08] <sardcaid> I'm hoping we can strike the low hanging fruit by weekend then start looking at more radical design concepts
[11:09] <sardcaid> Alright, back to agility. What about T3Ds validates 2 second align?
[11:11] <sfm_hobb3s> that's what keeps you alive when you try using t3d in a huge fleet battle
[11:11] <sfm_hobb3s> that and your guns
[11:12] <sfm_hobb3s> when you have a few hundred ships on grid tank is not going to matter. It needs to be just enough to allow you to survive long enough to pop the guy who has you tackled so you can warp off and back in again
[11:13] <sfm_hobb3s> much more time than that is going to give a lot more guys time to tackle you which is going to mean no big fleet viability
[11:13] <sardcaid> I don't buy that for fleet stuff
[11:14] <sardcaid> upon arrive on grid, 2 second align means nothing can tackle you prior to warp, unless in a bubble
[11:14] <sardcaid> post arrival, for fleet stuff you should be maneuvering towards a warp out anyway
[11:14] <sfm_hobb3s> yeah I probably should have mentioned most of those battles I've been in were null, and often I landed in bubbles
[11:16] <selto_black> Wh space also sees no problem with 2sec allign.
[11:16] <fintarue> I have no issues with it.
[11:16] <sardcaid> Given worse case scenario for say a dictor, agility which I think should be emulated, it's better than most other ships in game; I don't think interdictors are bad off for align time
[11:16] <selto_black> Usually if the get past the camp they get caught in the catch bubble.
[11:16] <sfm_hobb3s> actually those very moments where I land in bubbles usually end with a critical choice in what mode to switch to. Sometimes I've broken free in armor mode, sometimes prop mode.
[11:17] <sfm_hobb3s> Thankfully aurora can hit to nearly 50km in that mode.
[11:18] <selto_black> It should be mentioned that I use the Insta warp trick on the fessor to regularly run 1+B in blue loot through the jita-amarr pipe.
[11:18] <sfm_hobb3s> I've heard of that trick but never used it
[11:18] <sardcaid> it's the same thing as hecate align, except requires you to push a button
[11:18] <selto_black> ^
[11:19] <sfm_hobb3s> damn ccp making us push buttons
[11:19] <fintarue> It's trickier though. If you fudge up the timing you align stupid slow
[11:19] <selto_black> You inniate warp, ass soon as the server registers it you change modes.
[11:19] <selto_black> Boom. 2 tick allign.
[11:20] <selto_black> Nothing in the last 2 hours has rung Anny alarm bells on the pve side so far, though I could have missed something in it all.
[12:04] <suitonia> Sabre = 8.75 Effective Turrets (7 x1.25 from Interdictors) Heretic = 9.333 Effective Launchers (7x 1.333 from Interdictors) Eris = 9.333 Effective Turrets (7x 1.333 from G.Destroyer) Flycatcher = 10.5 KINETIC LOCKED launchers, 7 Universal Launchers (7x 1.5 KINETIC from C.Destroyer)
[12:05] <suitonia> almost every single bonus on Interdictors is offensive based, either application or projection, and the shared 50% reduction in MWD bloom on destroyer hull
[12:05] <suitonia> with exception to the heretic only, which gets 20% armor
[12:05] <suitonia> resists
[12:10] <suitonia> The reason why I like at least part of the DPS moved to sharpshooter is that it also makes brawling fleets want to swap to sharpshooter, which (if combined with some mode swapping spool up) could make it easier to kill players with mass logis
[12:10] <suitonia> If you're in a RR svipul fleet, you literally stay in defensive mode the entire fight
[12:10] <suitonia> aside from roaming pre-fight
[12:10] <suitonia> Where as with some DPS moved onto sharpshooter
[12:10] <suitonia> you may swap to sharpshooter when not primary
[12:10] <suitonia> which can help with target swapping for enemy
[12:11] <suitonia> and people who just all sit in defensive have lowered DPS
[12:18] <namamai> Yeah, that means that it's roughly competitive on DPS with a dictor in sharpshooter mode, and competitive with an AF in any other mode. Seems reasonable.
[12:30] <chessur> I was thinking 25% damage increase in sharpshooter at least when i was looking at it
[12:30] <chessur> Its significant, but not enough to feel forced into the mode at all times
[12:31] <sardcaid> So T3D currently have a base 50% damage role bonus, swap half of that role bonus to sharp shooter?
[12:31] <sardcaid> I don't feel that in any mode T3D need more damage output than current max
[12:40] <sardcaid> Also@suitoniaI don't follow the role bonus vs hull bonus difference for stacked bonuses
[12:41] <sardcaid> never mind I get it
[12:41] <suitonia> Because sard, 2 bonuses multiplied together, which is how it works in all of eve provides a bigger bonus
[12:41] <suitonia> 1.25 x 1.25 is not 1.5
[12:41] <sardcaid> I had in my mind that there was still 2 multipliers, not 3
[12:42] <sardcaid> Yes, then I think your middle of the road suggestion is what I had in my head
[12:42] <sardcaid> sounds good
[12:43] <suitonia> For the "middle of road" it would be Svipul = 7.5 Effective Turrets (<9 in Sharpshooter) Confessor = 7.5 Effective Turrets (<9 in Sharpshooter) Hecate = 8.333 Effective Turrets (<10 in Sharpshooter) Jackdaw = 8.333 Effective Launchers (<10 in Sharpshooter)
[12:43] <sardcaid> yup
[12:44] <sardcaid> for prop mode seems fine to me given the mode's intention, for defensive mode I envision the mode for fleet survival and tackle, so makes sense to me
[12:44] <sardcaid> it's still very potent damage output wise
[12:45] <suitonia> 1.25 x 1.2 is 1.5
[12:45] <suitonia> so total damage stays the same
[12:46] <sardcaid> yeah
[12:46] <sardcaid> X * 1.5 *1.5 vs
[12:46] <sardcaid> X* 1.2*1.25*1.5
[12:46] <suitonia> 20% sounds look a good number too, big enough to make a difference
[12:47] <sardcaid> haha glad you caught that
[12:47] <sardcaid> players like rounded numbers
[12:47] <suitonia> 33% resists vs 20% DPS is quite close to a Damage mod vs an Invul
[12:47] <suitonia> for reference
[12:47] <suitonia> not quite a damage mod, and bit better than Cold invul
[12:48] <suitonia> but still a close comparison
[12:50] <namamai> Eh, 33% resists are probably okay if they lose the sig radius bonuses.