[01:12] <hoodie-mafia> Thats more of a general issue, the fact that link alts are much more common now. And not so much something that was driven by T3Ds. Although it does push the already too powerful T3Ds to a whole new level But still, despite the fact that they are more common now. Would you really want to go and balance with the assumption that people are running ganglinks for all their T3Ds? I think if you ignore links and go with a proper balancing pass it will be enough to also severly weaken linked T3Ds
[01:16] <syenna-celeste> It was an extreme example. Truth is an un-linked T3D will still crush a small frigate gang, which is what Ascentior was contesting.
[01:17] <syenna-celeste> Idk. Links are a prickly subject. And as to whether I'd balance with the assumption that they're linked? Well.. Yes, given that I?_do_?run ganglinks for all my T3Ds.
[01:17] <syenna-celeste> is sort of a terrible person.
[01:17] <selto_black> I think we should make some time to go play testing.
[01:18] <hoodie-mafia> I think that statement is a little to blank, define "frigate gang". An untanked T3D doesnt tank more than a few hundred dps and can be killed by a small group of frigates 3-5 (depending on the tech level and fit on the frigates)
[01:19] <hoodie-mafia> unlinked*
[01:20] <chessur> Fozzie lives!
[01:21] <ascentior> Going to have to back-scroll a lot guys. Sorry I've been inactive the last few days. Just really crook
[01:21] <syenna-celeste> "How long is a piece of string."
[01:21] <hoodie-mafia> And yes links are a tough subject because they are there and are affecting how stuff plays out in Eve, regardless of whether we want to acknowledge it or not. But to just blindly assume ganglinks and balance on thay hoes waay to far
[01:22] <ascentior> And warning, I'm going to be ranting about why T3Ds should never be removed from smalls in FW
[01:22] <syenna-celeste> But yeah. It's a poor metric.
[01:22] <syenna-celeste> 5 derptrons vs an artillery Svipul is an easy 15 second victory for the Svipul since it'll just blap them straight off the field.
[01:22] <hoodie-mafia> Would be nice to see some data on how many T3Ds die under the effects of links
[01:22] <syenna-celeste> Too many variables.
[01:22] <syenna-celeste> And yeah, I'd be curious to see that.
[01:23] <syenna-celeste> But I don't think it would mean very much.
[01:23] <hoodie-mafia> Ulikely that we can ever see that data though
[01:25] <hoodie-mafia> Links make everything go out of context, a linked and properly tanked Confessor/Svipul can easily tank and kill an rlml Orthrus
[01:25] <sfm_hobb3s> I'll add this broad generalization in here while I'm at it. As 'OP' as many still call T3D's, they are gradually experiencing indirect nerfing. For instance, the recent buffs to battlecruisers present a clear and present danger to t3's now that they have much greater reach.
[01:25] <hoodie-mafia> It makes you forget for a second how overpowered an Orthrus under link effects is
[01:28] <ascentior> But the general premise is; T3Ds should be vulnerable to a small gang (2-3) of frigs, and in the most part, they are. T3Ds should be vulnerable to an anti-frig fitted cruiser. This means they are NOT OP in small plexes, and they will be outclassed completely in mediums. As it stands, T3Ds are dying daily to well piloted destroyers, and that should continue.
[01:29] <sfm_hobb3s> I like that line of reasoning
[01:30] <sfm_hobb3s> holds true to long range sniping t3's. Once more than one or two frigs get close things go to pot. As it should.
[01:31] <chessur> I disagree with your argument
[01:31] <chessur> Smalls are not t3d friendly
[01:32] <chessur> T3ds are not vulnerable to small 3 man frig groups. That is what they are designed to fight
[01:37] <sfm_hobb3s> I can't speak for fw plexes...never done any fw stuff. I went over some of my confessor sniper lossmails (not too many of those lol). Chessur's right. Not seeing anything less than six or 7 frigs on them. In big fleets getting tackled by two or three can be a death sentence (you might not be able to kill them fast enough before you get primaried).
[01:38] <ascentior> A well piloted t1 destroyer should beat a kiting T3D if it manages to catch it. A well piloted t1 kite destroyer should be able to kill a brawl T3D with some time and risk (and a well piloted T3D could still use good piloting to catch or leave)
[01:39] <sfm_hobb3s> Heh, apparently I have a total of 8 confessor losses. Making it about 187:1 efficiency:wink:
[01:39] <chessur> T1 destroyer will always lose to t3d. No conceivable way imo that t3d losses assuming proper fit and piloting(edited)
[01:39] <ascentior> T3Ds are absolutely vulnerable to small gangs of frigs. The only time they aren't, is if they start at their range. A small gang of frigs should not warp in on a T3D. Simple
[01:39] <sfm_hobb3s> A t1 destroyer fitting max resists to your damage type will still lose
[01:40] <ascentior> But a T3D would be taking a risk warping in on 3 frigs
[01:40] <chessur> Ok so you admit tgat a t3d if in the plex is a no go for 3 frigs
[01:40] <sfm_hobb3s> but then again that is brave I'm talking about....no offense to them of course but....
[01:40] <chessur> But you are advocating that they be allowed?
[01:40] <ascentior> Yeah, and a dragoon in a plex is a no go for frigs
[01:41] <ascentior> A Garmur or Worm?! Don't even think about it
[01:41] <chessur> A t3d can warp into frigs
[01:41] <chessur> Do you have an example where that would not be the case?
[01:41] <chessur> Garmur is not that good
[01:41] <chessur> Worm is on the other hand
[01:42] <chessur> Both are far weaker than T3D
[01:42] <ascentior> https://zkillboard.com/kill/49597247/ zkillboard.com Svipul | Eunice Akinia | Killmail Eunice Akinia (Tribal Liberation Force) lost their Svipul in Ezzara (Devoid). Final Blow by Maria Daphiti (PIE Inc.) flying in a Dragoon. Total Value: 111,644,097.34 ISK
[01:42] <selto_black> warping in on a sentinel
[01:42] <chessur> Posting random mails makes no sense...
[01:42] <chessur> I would warp in on a sentinel np
[01:42] <chessur> I fit cap boosters
[01:42] <sfm_hobb3s> I've killed a number of worms in my beam confessor, sometimes blapping their drones first
[01:43] <chessur> Sentinel is not scary
[01:43] <chessur> To a T3D
[01:43] <ascentior> Ask for an example, get an example
[01:43] <chessur> A jackdaw would 2 shot it, svipul would run it down, same with the confessor
[01:44] <chessur> I was asking for a situation, i should have specified
[01:44] <sfm_hobb3s> haven't shot many sentinels yet, but crucifiers last the time it takes beams to cycle 1 time
[01:44] <sfm_hobb3s> at 80km
[01:46] <chessur> TDs are useless if yoy dont have range control
[01:47] <chessur> Svipul runs you down, confessor runs you down, jackdaw kills you, and hecate cab more than likely do the same
[01:47] <suitonia> I think banning T3Ds from smalls creates more choices, and also lowers the bar for new players
[01:47] <suitonia> small plexes should be accessible
[01:47] <chessur> ^ agreed
[01:48] <suitonia> Small Plex Meta with T3Ds enabled: T3D or go home Small Plex Meta with T3Ds Disabled: T1 Destroyers, Interdictors, AFs, EAFs
[01:48] <chessur> You speak the truth brother
[01:48] <suitonia> it's already been announced and the vast majority of the FW community agrees with this.
[01:49] <suitonia> T3Cs are banned from mediums, T3Ds are banned from smalls makes sense consistency wide too
[01:50] <suitonia> T3Cs are banned from mediums but they're still everywhere in lowsec
[01:50] <suitonia> I imagine T3Ds will fare the same
[01:50] <suitonia> when you remove the cruiser counter-part T3Ds get too broken
[01:50] <suitonia> I mean... A Svipul in speed mode at 0km in dual buffer fit wins against max DPS gank catalyst at 0
[01:51] <suitonia> There aren't many winning plays
[01:51] <ascentior> Who is this 'vast majority'? I understand the precedent set by t3c. But they outclass BCs and BSs. And we're specifically trying to avoid that situation.
[01:52] <selto_black> but should cruisers be able to wtfpwn t3ds 24/7 in mediums?
[01:52] <suitonia> Should T3Ds be able to wtfpwn AFs, t1 destroyers, EAFs and interdictors 24/7 in smalls?
[01:52] <suitonia> it's a circular argument
[01:53] <selto_black> if t3ds are not competitive in mediums then their use case will be nilch
[01:53] <ascentior> First, they dont
[01:53] <selto_black> at least in fw plexes
[01:54] <chessur> The t3d currently will curbstomp anything destroyer and down
[01:54] <ascentior> Some t3d do too many things better than their counterpart
[01:54] <chessur> That is why we are here, to take some teeth out
[01:55] <chessur> No, all the T3D are opressive right now, and certainly in small plexes
[01:55] <suitonia> Every T3D is oppresive
[01:55] <ascentior> But statements like that show that you don't actually understand the situation, and don't want to hear anyone else's take on it. Regardless of evidence
[01:55] <suitonia> The hecate is certainly more balanced
[01:56] <selto_black> Personal attacks should probably be kept to a maximum of 0 thank you
[01:57] <chessur> Don't understand the situation? really m8?
[01:57] <chessur> no
[01:57] <ascentior> That did come out a little harsh and I apologise.
[01:57] <chessur> a T3D cannot kill an orthrus
[01:57] <chessur> If t3d are fine, then why are we here?(edited)
[01:57] <chessur> orthrus does too much DPS, and you will never break its tank
[01:58] <ascentior> https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/archives/tactical-destroyers/p1444960453004063 Is not the situation, based on the evidence I already started showing you chessur The t3d currently will curbstomp anything destroyer and down Oct 16th at 1:54 AM
[01:58] <chessur> not to mention the fact that it can just scram you at 24K
[01:58] <suitonia> ascentior can you please provide a fit which can kill a Jackdaw, Hecate, Confessor or Svipul in a 1v1
[01:59] <suitonia> from any of those classes (AFs, Interdictors, Destroyers, EAFs)
[01:59] <suitonia> assuming reasonable fits from both sides
[01:59] <ascentior> Check my previous link.
[01:59] <suitonia> I've killed T3Ds in Frigs before, but that's not because they are balanced, it's because they were poorly flown
[02:00] <sfm_hobb3s> I'm completely fine with t3d curbstopping anything destroyer and down. And even with giving cruisers a run for their money. Cruisers got way too much creep themselves anyways.
[02:01] <suitonia> Except those cruisers which they give a run for their money
[02:01] <suitonia> don't exist in smalls
[02:01] <suitonia> so it's just T3D curbstomps
[02:01] <sfm_hobb3s> again I'm speaking in general, I can't say anything in regard to FW:simple_smile:
[02:04] <selto_black> With the purposed changes to the confessors and the svipuls speed mode i can see this fit being very dangerous to all t3d's except the passive/dual mse svipul
[02:04] <selto_black> [Sentinel, Nuter] Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Drone Damage Amplifier II 5MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive Warp Scrambler II Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400 Tracking Disruptor II, Tracking Speed Disruption Script Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Diminishing Power System Drain I Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Semiconductor Memory Cell II Acolyte II x4 Hobgoblin II x4 Hornet EC-300 x4
[02:05] <suitonia> https://zkillboard.com/kill/46868001//https://zkillboard.com/kill/46927654//https://zkillboard.com/kill/49323549/ zkillboard.com Svipul | Monkinator | Killmail Monkinator (Perimeter Defense Systems) lost their Svipul in Tannolen (The Citadel). Final Blow by SharkPrince2001 (State Protectorate) flying in a Corax. Total Value: 53,554,693.14 ISK zkillboard.com Svipul | MyTimeIsNow | Killmail MyTimeIsNow (Rapid Withdrawal) lost their Svipul in Sujarento (The Citadel). Final Blow by SharkPrince2001 (State Protectorate) flying in a Corax. Total Value: 46,586,833.18 ISK zkillboard.com Hecate | KakaPants | Killmail KakaPants (Forge Industrial Command) lost their Hecate in K-B8DK (Querious)
[02:05] <suitonia> This character had 7mil SP at the time
[02:05] <suitonia> but it's just anecdotal evidence
[02:05] <suitonia> yes you can kill bad fits and bad pilots
[02:06] <suitonia> But when you look at the full picture, and the leading fits, it's mega oppressive
[02:07] <suitonia> If they were flown correctly, I would have lost all those fights
[02:07] <suitonia> except the hecate one maybe, because the fit
[02:08] <suitonia> Right now for new players, the progression for SP for FW seems more like novice >> Medium >> small
[02:08] <suitonia> rather than novice >> small >> Medium
[02:09] <suitonia> You can of course argue that Pirate Frigates (Particulary the Worm which is still unbalanced) dominate novices,
[02:10] <ascentior> Worm in novice is a Much greater issue than T3D in small, but that's a different beast
[02:10] <suitonia> but they aren't on the same scale of Svipul > everything else
[02:10] <ascentior> Svipul needs to have some teeth removed, agreed
[02:11] <ascentior> but as i said, a brawl fit should be vulnerable to kiters (with some ability to turn the table) and a kiter should be in big trouble if scarmmed
[02:11] <ascentior> And as it stands, an AC Svipul warping in on 2x Tormentors and Crucifier is dead
[02:12] <suitonia> Currently the Svipul is faster than some AB cruisers in speed mode with no prop
[02:12] <suitonia> 479m/s base speed
[02:12] <suitonia> every combat frig in the game is slower
[02:12] <suitonia> so it's not vulnerable when scrammed
[02:12] <suitonia> it kills everything when it's scrammed even with lr kite fit
[02:12] <ascentior> THAT is the issue, not that it fights dessies
[02:13] <ascentior> What you have mentioned should not be the case. And it should be the goal that it isn't that dangerous. But as it stands, that would still be DIAF when double webbed and TDd, so it's not unbeatable by small gangs
[02:14] <ascentior> And should they get the balance we seem to all agree on, then they shouldn't be as oppressive as they are now, so therefore even MORE vulnerable to small gangs
[02:15] <suitonia> why should it require a small gang to defeat a T3D
[02:15] <suitonia> If your a solo player trying to capture small FW plexes
[02:15] <suitonia> you can't if you're not a T3D
[02:15] <suitonia> thats the issue
[02:16] <suitonia> Gone are the new Coercer and Corax pilots
[02:19] <ascentior> That is the nature of FW. There is a bigger fish. If you want to solo, either be that bigger fish, or avoid the bigger fish.
[02:21] <ascentior> I agree that the T3D is CURRENTLY too much. But THAT is the issue, not that you can't solo FW plexes in the cheapest combat ship available against all opponents
[02:21] <ascentior> Solo coercers are in danger to much more than T3D
[02:22] <ascentior> The fact that T3D (even while OP) are still dying to t1 dessies on a regular basis suggest that once shaved back a little, they SHOULD be in a good place to be competitive
[02:23] <ascentior> FW is not a solo battlefield. There are good opportunities for solo, but we can't have it all
[02:24] <forsot> i can link sol atrons killing them. To me their tank/speed/sig are the issue them having slightly better damage application over their t1 counterparts is not that bad
[02:27] <suitonia> Ok, So I think a great thing to add the Sard Caids Spreadsheet would be the following Do you think Tactical Destroyers should be removed from small plexes? Comments/explaination
[02:27] <suitonia> Pinned a message.See all pinned items in this channel. suitonia Ok, So I think a great thing to add the Sard Caids Spreadsheet would be the following Do you think Tactical Destroyers should be removed from small plexes? Comments/explaination Oct 16th at 2:27 AM
[02:28] <hoodie-mafia> They can actually, 10mn linked T3Ds take almost no damage under links even from light missiles
[02:29] <ascentior> I was planning on making it one of my major points anyway. I have the feeling that this is already decided by CCP though. And a lot have accepted it without much thought
[02:29] <syenna-celeste> If an Orthrus manages to get run down by a 10mn T3D then honestly I see that as darwinism rather than a balancing problem.
[02:30] <hoodie-mafia> https://zkillboard.com/kill/49089841/ zkillboard.com Svipul | Hoodie Mafia | Killmail Hoodie Mafia (Hard Knocks Inc.) lost their Svipul in F2OY-X (Querious). Final Blow by Teslarr Arareb (Caldari Deep Space Ventures) flying in a Caracal. Total Value: 160,882,527.40 ISK
[02:30] <hoodie-mafia> A 10mn svipul does 4700 heated
[02:30] <hoodie-mafia> Thats not that hard to imagine being caught by it
[02:31] <hoodie-mafia> https://zkillboard.com/kill/49091359/is the nearest example I could look up quickly zkillboard.com Orthrus | Horibble Ormand | Killmail Horibble Ormand (High Flyers) lost their Orthrus in M-ZJWJ (Immensea). Final Blow by Hoodie Mafia (Hard Knocks Inc.) flying in a Svipul. Total Value: 908,532,905.18 ISK
[02:32] <hoodie-mafia> It was 2 svipuls but the point remains, it would have lived longer with 1 Svipul but it can still get ran down and its unable to kill the Svipuls
[03:38] <gorski_car> It is
[03:48] <ascentior> I think I'm missing your reference r point Gorski? What is?
[03:50] <chessur> the orthrus fit is so bad....
[03:52] <chessur> im sorry but, a properly fit and flown orthrus doesnt die to10mn AB svipuls. Even if the svipuls do manage to catch the orthrus, they are certainly not going to be going near full speed with AB in order to help mitigate damage. Load precision missiles, GG.
[04:01] <hoodie-mafia> I'd be willing to take you up on that Chessur:)
[04:02] <hoodie-mafia> But were getting offtopic
[04:05] <ascentior> Ah, I see, you're pointing out that the T3D in FW smalls is concluded. Yeah, it seems that way, and that was why I hadn't really bothered broaching the subject., But more than a couple of people have asked me to make the argument for them to stay
[05:23] <selto_black> @ccp_fozziejust watched the video! Sounds like some good stuff. I am worried that the introduction of new small sized ships might have a major impact on our focus group. Hopefully we get some preliminary stats released to the public soon so that we can take them into account.
[05:24] <ccp_fozzie> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103671for the navy frigs [December] Navy EWar Frigates: Hello one and all! We are planning a big set of ship and module updates for this Winter, including 13 new ships, module tiericide and much more. This thread will introduce 4 of the new ships, a new line of Empire Navy Ewar Frigates. These ships are...
[05:24] <ccp_fozzie> logi frigs are not quite ready to share stats on yet but we're going to be fairly careful with them
[05:25] <ccp_fozzie> think the difference between T1 and T2 logi cruisers, or even a bit closer
[05:56] <selto_black> Gah! I need a way to edit the evehq database!
[06:04] <chessur> I am sad about T2 frig logi
[06:04] <chessur> eve doesn't need more space clerics imo
[06:04] <chessur> vigil navy issue is interesting tho, only T1 hull to have web range bonus
[06:10] <selto_black> Rockets for days!
[06:12] <chessur> with a web bonus
[06:12] <chessur> and no velocity bonus
[06:13] <chessur> i would suspect LML
[06:13] <chessur> and long point
[06:13] <chessur> with 2X web
[06:13] <chessur> GG
[06:13] <chessur> you thought the garmr was bad?
[06:13] <chessur> welcome to new hell
[06:13] <chessur> And this one can shoot fury missiles at you, that apply full damage
[06:17] <selto_black> That is my preferred pvp play style. Render the opponent impotent and then have friends blap you.
[06:20] <chessur> meh.
[06:20] <chessur> just going to be more of a headache for small gang /solo
[06:20] <chessur> more frigates means that anti-frigate ships are going to become more and more imporant
[06:20] <chessur> as eve turns to a heavy small ship meta
[06:20] <chessur> with destroyers and frigates comprising the majority of ships
[06:36] <selto_black> Imo decreasing the time between pvp ship death and undocking again can only be a good thing.
[06:37] <selto_black> Throw a bit of rouge like mechanics so that newbros and vets alike don't get bored.
[06:38] <selto_black> Eat, sleep, whelp, repeat.(edited)
[07:49] <syenna-celeste> https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/archives/tactical-destroyers/p1444958920004003 Ascentiorascentior But the general premise is; T3Ds should be vulnerable to a small gang (2-3) of frigs, and in the most part, they are. T3Ds should be vulnerable to an anti-frig fitted cruiser. This means they are NOT OP in small plexes, and they will be outclassed completely in mediums.Show more... Oct 16th at 1:28 AM
[07:49] <syenna-celeste> I can't overstate how incorrect all of these statements are.
[07:49] <syenna-celeste> Except the anti-frig cruiser part.
[07:51] <syenna-celeste> A T3D properly fit will eat a small frigate gang for breakfast, and then ask for seconds. Hell, an expensively fit (and appropriately linked and implanted) T3D will take on 15 or more frigates alone.
[07:53] <syenna-celeste> In their current position they utterly outclass T1 Destroyers, and aren't all that vulnerable to cruisers that aren't Orthrus'. Which says to me there's a problem given how powerful cruisers are in general (and how strong the Orthrus has to be to cause problems for T3Ds)
[07:53] <ascentior> Forget links and implants. We're moving into ridiculous Territory now.
[07:53] <syenna-celeste> They need to be gone from smalls, and the people telling you otherwise just want to keep up their easy mode.
[07:54] <ascentior> No, the people telling me otherwise are the people killing them in smalls
[07:54] <syenna-celeste> Then they can go ahead and kill them in mediums.
[07:55] <ascentior> So in your sweeping general statement that everything I've said is wrong. Do you think they should be vulnerable to a small fleet of Frigates?
[07:56] <syenna-celeste> Yes. Your statement then went on to say that they are, which they're not.
[08:03] <syenna-celeste> Oh yeah: >Forget links and implants. In lowsec, anybody not running at least one of these is an honorable samurai. Or poorly informed. Or just straight poor. You can't not factor them in to balancing decisions since it's fairly certain that they're not going away for the foreseeable future.
[08:03] <syenna-celeste> And they are?_everywhere_?.
[08:19] <gorski_car> Links have sadly become more of a standard
[09:29] <suitonia> Should nerf the hull HP on the Tristan too a bit@ccp_fozzie
[09:29] <suitonia> Still has too high DPS/EHP ratio in a 24km kite fit
[09:30] <suitonia> but all the other changes are great
[09:30] <suitonia> Slasher is going to awesome now it can actually fit Mwd+MSE and small neut
[09:31] <suitonia> Orthrus is still going to be the most broken ship in the game
[09:32] <suitonia> But going from 10 to 8.75 effective turrets might at least make way for some other options
[09:32] <suitonia> 10 effective launchers was way too high
[09:45] <gorski_car> wrong channel bruhhh
[09:59] <forsot> @selto_black: you can make ships to your own specs in eve hq its not as nice to deal with as pyfa or eft for that tho